He's okay I guess.
Good driver shame about the finger, it always seems to me he's telling everyone else to "Go Swivel...."
Good driver shame about the finger, it always seems to me he's telling everyone else to "Go Swivel...."
How Good is Sebastian Vettel?
- Thread starter teabagyokel
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Let's see which one becomes a 3 x WDC first shall we [/URL]
And this is why I think we're in for a great finale to the season!
As for Vettel I think he's improved, he can overtake, his control has improved, he can win not from pole, is probably the best driver at turning it on and driving to perfection when the pressure/challenge is on, still bloody quick and would be a worthy WDC this year.
I however think Alonso deserves to be triple WDC first as he's been exceptional this year.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
Scheckter and Depailler. Peterson only raced for Tyrrell in 1977, when Tyrrell had their best years behind them.
I think what Sir Jackie has been saying is that if he stopped now, Seb would not be regarded as a great. Nowhere does he say that Seb will not become a great, but he holds the position that you are what you have achieved.
I don't really think I am at odds with that position. I don't think he has achieved everything he needs to have done to be an all time great, but personally, I think that by the end of his career, he will have done.
Personally I think Vettel has been the 3rd best driver this season. Alonso deserves to win it IMO, he's dragged that car by the scruff of it's neck (still a decent car mind) and he always seems in contention for a podium. Hamilton like Alonso has driven brilliantly, both have greatly outperformed their team-mates this season and both have won when not in the best car (Alonso in Malaysia and Hamilton in Canada (although the latter is hard to judge)), both have also been let down by either a car that is not competitive enough ultimately or by team mistakes/car reliability.
Vettel has driven fantastically, don't get me wrong... However he was outperformed by Webber at the start of the season and although he had bad luck in Valencia generally the niggles seem to be on Webber's side of the garage mostly, particularly with gearboxes. People point to his great drive in Spa (and great it was) however he didn't win then, not to mention I doubt Vettel was complaining about Grosjean's driving at that race
, point is yeah it was great and he overtook cars, however that is one occasion. Usually he ends up sat on someone's gearbox for a few laps then you hear him making a comment down the radio, he consequently pits and while in clean air and with a great car and fresh boots he'll jump the guy he was trying to overtake.
Vettel has driven fantastically, don't get me wrong... However he was outperformed by Webber at the start of the season and although he had bad luck in Valencia generally the niggles seem to be on Webber's side of the garage mostly, particularly with gearboxes. People point to his great drive in Spa (and great it was) however he didn't win then, not to mention I doubt Vettel was complaining about Grosjean's driving at that race
, point is yeah it was great and he overtook cars, however that is one occasion. Usually he ends up sat on someone's gearbox for a few laps then you hear him making a comment down the radio, he consequently pits and while in clean air and with a great car and fresh boots he'll jump the guy he was trying to overtake.
Il_leone
World Champion
Vettel needs to show that he can lead a team to be a consistent front runner
the great drivers tend to be great team leaders it has to be said...Vettel at the moment is only an employee or protege of Red Bull 's policy
He needs to show that he can lead a not so good team and make it look really good like Schumacher and Alonso ..the same refers to Hamilton who will get to show this at Mercedes you';d feel
the great drivers tend to be great team leaders it has to be said...Vettel at the moment is only an employee or protege of Red Bull 's policy
He needs to show that he can lead a not so good team and make it look really good like Schumacher and Alonso ..the same refers to Hamilton who will get to show this at Mercedes you';d feel
The Tyrrell, if not the class of the field, was never far off. In 1971 and 1973, Cevert finished 3rd and 4th in the WDC while JYS won it all. Ther were numerous 1-2 finishes for the team as well. As for Stewart's WDC in 1969, there is no doubt that the Matra was the class of the field.
Following his own logic, you could say that JYS would never have won a WDC without Ken Tyrrell, as he never won one for anyone else. And I am a big fan of JYS.
Redbull have been at the top or nearabouts for the 3 years so he must be doing something right. All this talk of team leaders is a red herring. This is Formula1 not politics and if you are achieving the maximum available with the car and team, like Vettel has, then that's all that matters. Good drivers always evolve and how they interact with the team comes down to personality, age and experience.
If they win both titles for three years in a row, I don't think that is a valid criticism.
I've been thinking about pressure and Vettel a lot this week. Maybe this speaks volumes about his mentality but I don't think we've ever seen Vettel under pressure in the way that we've seen the likes of Alonso and Hamilton under pressure. Vettel hasn't really had to fight tooth and nail for any of his championships, in my opinion.
In 2010 no one was really focusing on him, it was more about Alonso and even Webber, Vettel just seemed to pop up in the last race and it was like "oh, I've won the championship now". In 2011 the Red Bull was utterly dominant and no one could touch him. This year is similar to 2010, it's only really now that he is in a championship fight. These are quite different to the sort of Alonso vs. Schumacher, Alonso vs. Hamilton battles we have seen in the past, for example.
Like I say, maybe Red Bull and Vettel are brilliant at coping with pressure, but I think we're yet to see Vettel in a really close, fierce battle that has lasted for most of a season. I think this is analogous to the argument that we have yet to see Vettel in the same car as a world champion team mate.
Vettel is a two time, almost three time, world champion, he must be very, very, good. In particular, on the face of it it would appear that he's one of the best qualifiers and first lap racers that the sport has seen. I'd just like to see him come out on top in a blood, sweat and tears sort of fight both on and off the track. I guess you could almost say that he's got away with being too "nice" so far.
Okay fair point, I guess he's never been in a position when it's been that close to lose, in 2010 and 2012 until now he's met the challenge and come from behind. If Alonso can stay with him until the last race we could be treated to seeing how Seb does in this situation.
Il_leone
World Champion
siffert_fan
JYS was very much the team leader on the track....Ken Tyrell was a good business manager but the fact that Tyrell never had the same sustained success again is an indication what JYS did... not even Peterson or Scheckter could make Tyrell a consistent front runner
teabagyokel Quintessentially
You look at the top 5 drivers that people name - Clarke, Senna, PRost, Schumacher and Fangio and the common denominator were that they were great team leaders as well as drivers except maybe Clarke
In Senna, Schumacher and Prost you would say they make a team look a lot better than they ought to be
Off course if Vettel leaves and Red Bull went into a prolonged slump then I would change my opinions of him
JYS was very much the team leader on the track....Ken Tyrell was a good business manager but the fact that Tyrell never had the same sustained success again is an indication what JYS did... not even Peterson or Scheckter could make Tyrell a consistent front runner
teabagyokel Quintessentially
You look at the top 5 drivers that people name - Clarke, Senna, PRost, Schumacher and Fangio and the common denominator were that they were great team leaders as well as drivers except maybe Clarke
In Senna, Schumacher and Prost you would say they make a team look a lot better than they ought to be
Off course if Vettel leaves and Red Bull went into a prolonged slump then I would change my opinions of him
Ok. haven't got involved in this thread before now but purely and simply F1 is a results business and if Seb secures a third title this season he'll have done something none of the other guys on the grid have been able to do which too me automaticly puts him top of the pile.
I'm sure there will be lots of excuses for the other guys but part of being an F1 great is getting the right team behind you and the right support in order to put you in the best position to get results. Seb hasn't got that by luck ya know. People have to want to work with him and thry do because they think he's the best. End of story.
I'm sure there will be lots of excuses for the other guys but part of being an F1 great is getting the right team behind you and the right support in order to put you in the best position to get results. Seb hasn't got that by luck ya know. People have to want to work with him and thry do because they think he's the best. End of story.
I've noted this before, but it's very possible that Vettel has had the single most fortuitous F1 career ever.
He gets his very first drive in a good car when he steps into the BMW for an injured Kubica.
He then takes over for the numpty Scott Speed who was just begging to be replaced.
The 2008 Toro Rosso was a Red Bull/Newey creation with a better engine.
The 2009 car was the best car in the field for 3/4 of the season.
His teammate was shuffled aside in the quest for the 2010 title.
2011 was Schumacher-esque. (Ferrari Schumacher that is)
But if he ends up notching 2012 on his belt as well, I will give him his full dues.
And just to be clear, recognizing his good fortune is not attempt to slate his driving.
He gets his very first drive in a good car when he steps into the BMW for an injured Kubica.
He then takes over for the numpty Scott Speed who was just begging to be replaced.
The 2008 Toro Rosso was a Red Bull/Newey creation with a better engine.
The 2009 car was the best car in the field for 3/4 of the season.
His teammate was shuffled aside in the quest for the 2010 title.
2011 was Schumacher-esque. (Ferrari Schumacher that is)
But if he ends up notching 2012 on his belt as well, I will give him his full dues.
And just to be clear, recognizing his good fortune is not attempt to slate his driving.
Bushi
Race Winner
Yeah, but you can't say they didn't had luck that was standing on their side when they did it.
Bushi
Race Winner
To me Alonso talks a lot of gibberish.
If he was able to win in a car that was only 5th-6th fastest in the beginning of the year. Why is he unable to win in a car that now is 2nd or 3rd fastest, if not the fastest car out there?
He always seems to forget that almost everytime he won in a 'lesser' car, he had the luck to back him up.
KekeTheKing that list really is subjective you know and I can make my own for others on the grid. for example:
lewis hamilton:
was lucky to jump into the Mclaren seat as JPM fell out with Ron
was lucky to get the mclaren seat just as they produced a good car and Schumi retired
was lucky to be there to take advantage of his world champion teammate falling out with the team
Was lucky the team chose to focus on him in only his second season
was lucky in his championship year that Alonso was in an uncompetive car and Kimi was on poor form.
Fernando Alonso:
Was lucky to have the weight of Flavo to get him a drive at Renault
Was lucky Jarno Trulli decided to fluff his career after his first win
Was lucky to suddenly have a competive car the same season Schumi and Ferrari finally go off the boil
Was lucky Kimi's 2005 Mclaren was made out of chocolate.
I'm sure people will argue with this list as much as I can argue with Keke's. Their isn't a single F1 champion or great who hasn't been lucky but its about how you convert the luck and Seb Vettel has taken all his chances so I think his dues whether he wins this year or not.
The problem Seb has is that when he arrived on the scene most people were either backing team fernando and team lewis. add to that he doesn't always win in the most viewer friendly way and it all adds up to him not really getting the respect he deserves.
Records speak for themselves though so give it a decade and I reckon he'll be praised a lot more.
lewis hamilton:
was lucky to jump into the Mclaren seat as JPM fell out with Ron
was lucky to get the mclaren seat just as they produced a good car and Schumi retired
was lucky to be there to take advantage of his world champion teammate falling out with the team
Was lucky the team chose to focus on him in only his second season
was lucky in his championship year that Alonso was in an uncompetive car and Kimi was on poor form.
Fernando Alonso:
Was lucky to have the weight of Flavo to get him a drive at Renault
Was lucky Jarno Trulli decided to fluff his career after his first win
Was lucky to suddenly have a competive car the same season Schumi and Ferrari finally go off the boil
Was lucky Kimi's 2005 Mclaren was made out of chocolate.
I'm sure people will argue with this list as much as I can argue with Keke's. Their isn't a single F1 champion or great who hasn't been lucky but its about how you convert the luck and Seb Vettel has taken all his chances so I think his dues whether he wins this year or not.
The problem Seb has is that when he arrived on the scene most people were either backing team fernando and team lewis. add to that he doesn't always win in the most viewer friendly way and it all adds up to him not really getting the respect he deserves.
Records speak for themselves though so give it a decade and I reckon he'll be praised a lot more.
Bus Stop Chicane
Points Scorer
It really does seem that Vettel will never satisfy a majority of British fans. The fact that he could become a back-to-back triple WDC still won't silence the critics. It just comes off as anti-German bollox if you ask me.
The criticism is that he can only win from pole but the reason most of his victories are like this is because the boy is damn fast and he rarely makes mistakes when on pole.
If he does it this season he will be one of the greats, it's as simple as that.
The criticism is that he can only win from pole but the reason most of his victories are like this is because the boy is damn fast and he rarely makes mistakes when on pole.
If he does it this season he will be one of the greats, it's as simple as that.
Il_leone
World Champion
Bus Stop Chicane
as Jenson Button said last year at Suzuka " Bloody Germans " - well after seeing Schumacher dominate for so long they don't need another German dominating
When on pole Vettel makes it look easy but when he fluffs and cracks under pressure he starts to look stupid and have a real moan about somebody's else's fault
I think we saw in Canada last year when Button chased him down he cracked under pressure on the last lap
JYS is right Vettel still needs to answer his critics without having winning n a car designed by Newey and also having a serious top teammate to prove his credentials
as Jenson Button said last year at Suzuka " Bloody Germans " - well after seeing Schumacher dominate for so long they don't need another German dominating
When on pole Vettel makes it look easy but when he fluffs and cracks under pressure he starts to look stupid and have a real moan about somebody's else's fault
I think we saw in Canada last year when Button chased him down he cracked under pressure on the last lap
JYS is right Vettel still needs to answer his critics without having winning n a car designed by Newey and also having a serious top teammate to prove his credentials
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