Maldonaldo has achieved similar in a Williams
How Good is Sebastian Vettel?
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Maldonaldo has achieved similar in a Williams
Good fair honest article teabagyokel
In my eyes Vettel is far better than many give him credit for.His only peer on the present grid is Alonso as he is also a double WDC.None of the others have achieved that feat as yet.
I feel that Vettel has answered all of the criticisms of his ablilties,ie cannot over take,can only win from pole and only if he has the best car.
He will undoubtedly go on to win further WDC's and the record books will show those statistics.
I have been lucky enough to meet him at Red Bull charity promotions and he is one of the most likeable blokes you could ever wish to meet.
In my eyes Vettel is far better than many give him credit for.His only peer on the present grid is Alonso as he is also a double WDC.None of the others have achieved that feat as yet.
I feel that Vettel has answered all of the criticisms of his ablilties,ie cannot over take,can only win from pole and only if he has the best car.
He will undoubtedly go on to win further WDC's and the record books will show those statistics.
I have been lucky enough to meet him at Red Bull charity promotions and he is one of the most likeable blokes you could ever wish to meet.
Could yes. Would? I don't think so. He was only matching Hamilton and after the race Hamilton said he was cruising and he had the track advantage. Vettel would have certainly had a real fight on his hands for the win.
As for Vettel overall I would place him on a par with Hamilton and Alonso. However they each have different strengths, attributes and weaknesses. I will say he's been very fortunate with the cars he's driven, however Alonso has so far been right when he said that Vettel has shown he can't win when not in the fastest car, unlike Hamilton. I think this is still a main sticking point with many fans and the main reason why he isn't considered among the other two.
I should have put 'would' with a question mark as there was obviously the task of passing him, however Vettel did look faster. Whether that was due to Hamilton actually nursing the problem that forced him out of the race I don't know. In either case, it would have come down to a pit stop pass I'd think.
F1 Shift.net
Points Scorer
Vettel is as good as the car he's in. He'll never do what Alonso has done through most of 2012 or what Hamilton can do. He's fast, but only if the car is as well...luckily for him, the Red Bull has been great these last three seasons
Andyoak
Champion Elect
May I refer you to the 'Star in a Reasonably Priced Car'?
Vettel is very good and could be great; as a few others have been in the past. Greatness is assigned to a person by others and their peers; usually long after that person has stopped being very good.
I'm happy to go along with that and wait for greatness to be recognised if and when it has been earned over a, hopefully, long and distinguished career.
Still think Maldonado's better
Vettel is very good and could be great; as a few others have been in the past. Greatness is assigned to a person by others and their peers; usually long after that person has stopped being very good.
I'm happy to go along with that and wait for greatness to be recognised if and when it has been earned over a, hopefully, long and distinguished career.
Still think Maldonado's better
If Vettel hasn't driven in a non-great car since 2009, how can we judge what he'd do in one now?
Hamilton was 0.7 seconds slower when the track was "wet & oily".
And according to this link, a wet track alone adds four seconds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track#F1_drivers
Kamui-FastestChefInTheWorld
Points Scorer
So he's only 6 tenths faster than a 60 year old man? He's not as good as I thought
Bushi
Race Winner
Not rightly so. The Ferrari engine and Mercedes engine are more powerful than the Renault one, so on a track where downforce is less.....
It always seems strange to me that people give drivers stick for being in great cars. It happend when Hamilton joined McLaren and now it appears to be happening to Vettel for winning in a great car. It's a fact of F1 that poor cars don't win world titles no matter how good the driver. Yes there have been one or two 'not the quickest' cars that have won but generally that is down to the quickest car being un-reliable.
So we could create any number of threads such as 'how good was Mario Andretti?' or 'how good was Alan Jones', two drivers who wond WDC's in outstanding cars but who have had very different careers outside of F1.
What we need is something like the Rugby League season final in F1. At the end of the season a track is chosen for the final championship play off. Let.s say Brazil for the sake of it. Each driver is issued an FIA spec car, let's say the current GP2 car, that way no one should have driven it before and each car is identical. They qualify in championship order and at a distance apart determined by their number of points in the championship. It should be a GP length race on spec tyres with one mandatory pit stop. Then we may see who the best driver is.
So we could create any number of threads such as 'how good was Mario Andretti?' or 'how good was Alan Jones', two drivers who wond WDC's in outstanding cars but who have had very different careers outside of F1.
What we need is something like the Rugby League season final in F1. At the end of the season a track is chosen for the final championship play off. Let.s say Brazil for the sake of it. Each driver is issued an FIA spec car, let's say the current GP2 car, that way no one should have driven it before and each car is identical. They qualify in championship order and at a distance apart determined by their number of points in the championship. It should be a GP length race on spec tyres with one mandatory pit stop. Then we may see who the best driver is.
Il_leone
World Champion
Why people don;t rate Vettel ? Well Alonso does not or is it just his mind games 
People harp about his achievements in a Toro Rosso
Funded by Red Bull and BMW into F1 right
His start at STR were most impressive during the wet races where he was 3rd in Japan before smashing into Webber and then blaming Hamilton for erratic driving ...I've seen Seb do no different behind the safety car a few times the hypocrite and it lead to Webber's infamous outburst " Its
kids then"
He made up for it with an excellent 4th in China
2008
- STR started with the old car and he started his first 4 races with accidents / damaged cars
Only when STR got the 2008 Red Bull did he improve significantly over Bourdais.. with a strong 2nd half of the season including the win in Monza
His results were strong in the wet mainly and some flukey moments where he got the better of his teammate in Spa and Japan
People seem to overlook he won in a Red Bull chassis designed by Newey with a Ferrari engine so it can't be a rubbish car
2009
- Being the closest challenger to the BRawns it was often blighted by fluffed starts, mistakes and inability to make passes with his wins coming from leading from pole into first corner
- however signs of petulance was evident in both Turkey and BRazil where he threw away race wins through mistakes and his teammate was not going to move over for him
2010
- 5 wins and taking the championship right at the death
Whilst he could have various races owing to mechanical problems ...he again showed he was still immature with some reckless starts in Britain and Germany where he tried his best to squeeze Webber and Alonso into the wall and losing out both times
Combined with accidents through hitting his teammate Webber at Turkey and then Button in Spa made people question his abilities wheel to wheel
Also silly mistakes like the penalty in Hungary for failing to keep up with the SC made people question why he is considered a top driver
a howling mistake by Ferrari at Abu Dhabi combined with late season development which suited his driving style saw him snatch the title
however again his wins were from leading into the first corner
2011
a walkover thanks to the superb Red Bull perfected with EBD and DRs system allowed him to dominate
his reputation was not helped by the team asking Webber to hold station whilst pressuring him at SIlverstone
Rarely challenged but when he did he was prone to mistakes like in Canada last lap and Germany with very poor pace
Again the race wins cam mainly from being on the front row again
His costant comments about Alonso pushing onto the grass at Monza especially when asked about shoving Button at Suzuka was ridiculous
2012
he has managed to maintain a strong challenge now thanks to late development of the team and managed to score his wins from pole again
However some indifferent qualifying has meant he has had to race through the field but only 1 race Spa is where he truly has had to do some overtaking and more relying on the Red Bull being a great car in clear air to help him push up the field
he still has not proven he can having to pass several cars through the field.
No disrespect to Mark Webber but he is not a world class driver in the league of Hamilton or Alonso
Until Vettel pairs up as a teammate to either and beats them in a straight fight he will always be accused of team favouritism within Red Bull
People harp about his achievements in a Toro Rosso
Funded by Red Bull and BMW into F1 right
His start at STR were most impressive during the wet races where he was 3rd in Japan before smashing into Webber and then blaming Hamilton for erratic driving ...I've seen Seb do no different behind the safety car a few times the hypocrite and it lead to Webber's infamous outburst " Its
kids then"He made up for it with an excellent 4th in China
2008
- STR started with the old car and he started his first 4 races with accidents / damaged cars
Only when STR got the 2008 Red Bull did he improve significantly over Bourdais.. with a strong 2nd half of the season including the win in Monza
His results were strong in the wet mainly and some flukey moments where he got the better of his teammate in Spa and Japan
People seem to overlook he won in a Red Bull chassis designed by Newey with a Ferrari engine so it can't be a rubbish car
2009
- Being the closest challenger to the BRawns it was often blighted by fluffed starts, mistakes and inability to make passes with his wins coming from leading from pole into first corner
- however signs of petulance was evident in both Turkey and BRazil where he threw away race wins through mistakes and his teammate was not going to move over for him
2010
- 5 wins and taking the championship right at the death
Whilst he could have various races owing to mechanical problems ...he again showed he was still immature with some reckless starts in Britain and Germany where he tried his best to squeeze Webber and Alonso into the wall and losing out both times
Combined with accidents through hitting his teammate Webber at Turkey and then Button in Spa made people question his abilities wheel to wheel
Also silly mistakes like the penalty in Hungary for failing to keep up with the SC made people question why he is considered a top driver
a howling mistake by Ferrari at Abu Dhabi combined with late season development which suited his driving style saw him snatch the title
however again his wins were from leading into the first corner
2011
a walkover thanks to the superb Red Bull perfected with EBD and DRs system allowed him to dominate
his reputation was not helped by the team asking Webber to hold station whilst pressuring him at SIlverstone
Rarely challenged but when he did he was prone to mistakes like in Canada last lap and Germany with very poor pace
Again the race wins cam mainly from being on the front row again
His costant comments about Alonso pushing onto the grass at Monza especially when asked about shoving Button at Suzuka was ridiculous
2012
he has managed to maintain a strong challenge now thanks to late development of the team and managed to score his wins from pole again
However some indifferent qualifying has meant he has had to race through the field but only 1 race Spa is where he truly has had to do some overtaking and more relying on the Red Bull being a great car in clear air to help him push up the field
he still has not proven he can having to pass several cars through the field.
No disrespect to Mark Webber but he is not a world class driver in the league of Hamilton or Alonso
Until Vettel pairs up as a teammate to either and beats them in a straight fight he will always be accused of team favouritism within Red Bull
Il_leone
World Champion
obviously if Vettel wins this championship I would consider it his greatest having fought back from a deficit to Alonso
Problem I find with Vettel is he complains about others when he could not overtake or is being punished unfairly like in Hockenheim and
when he makes an idiot of himself wheel banging or gives someone a close shave he says its racing
Problem I find with Vettel is he complains about others when he could not overtake or is being punished unfairly like in Hockenheim and
when he makes an idiot of himself wheel banging or gives someone a close shave he says its racing
I like what you are saying cider_and_toast but even with your criteria it wouldn't be an even playing field as each team could set the car up differently.
As GP2 stands the best teams get the best out of the car, it would need to be that each team has a completely homogenized car, and the drivers got the car they drove by a number they draw out of a hat, and even in this scenario people would dispute the result on some ground or another...
As GP2 stands the best teams get the best out of the car, it would need to be that each team has a completely homogenized car, and the drivers got the car they drove by a number they draw out of a hat, and even in this scenario people would dispute the result on some ground or another...
Or when he took Webber out in Turkey in 2010 when it was plain to see he was in the wrong, and Horner backed him up,
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