How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[Il_leone]

FB
I meant can Vettel win in a car other than ones designed by Adrian Newey...he was only good in the Toro Rosso in 2008 when they had the Red Bull chassis other than that you only saw it in the wet

with Hamilton - he's beaten both Alonso and Button - two reigning world champions in the same team so that is where Hamilton can be rated higher despite his record

 

[Jen]

FB, what have you done? Mentioning Hamilton on a Vettel thread!

 

[FB]

Sorry Jen

 

[Il_leone]

Vettel is going to do a Schumacher and stay at Red Bull - I can't see him moving to Ferrari if Alonso is there and then we will get into a Schumacher esque discussion about his achievements

I wonder if Red Bull promote JEV or Riccardo that they are allowed to race Vettel

 

[teabagyokel]

Historic points scored by Scuderia Toro Rosso:

 

[FB]

Can I say the Vettel is "smokin'" in that graph teabagyokel

 

[Il_leone]

Like I said that Torro Rosso Vettel drove was a Red Bull chassis with Ferrari engine and had plenty of Dieter's money

Since then Toro Rosso have had their funding cut which has clearly been diverted to Red Bull and had to design their own chassis

As Algarsuari says Marko thinks that Toro Rosso can still win races - the deluded fool when the terms are different to what Vettel had

 

[The Pits]

So how would you explain bourdais, speed and liuzzi? I'm sorry, but the argument that he cannot win in a poor car, oh except torro rosso which doesn't count anyway.

I cannot see what more he can do to prove his class to everyone.

 

[Brogan]

He'd have to do the same as Hamilton would to counter his detractors; win the race having started from the pit lane, in reverse, blindfolded, with no engine or gearbox, faulty KERS, broken DRS and overtake everyone on the circuit. Twice.

 

[teabagyokel]

Just to sum that graph up, the most any other driver scored for Toro Rosso with the old points system was 6 points; Vettel almost did that in half a season in 2007 and beat that level at the 2008 Monaco Grand Prix, before the Toro Rosso was commonly accepted to have become a great car (some time around Valencia).

 

[Wombcat]

He'd have to do the same as Hamilton would to counter his detractors; win the race having started from the pit lane, in reverse, blindfolded, with no engine or gearbox, faulty KERS, broken DRS and overtake everyone on the circuit. Twice.

Oh, so pretty much what Button did in Canada last year?

 

[Olivier]

How good the Red Bull is? Clearly Vettel is someone very special but if he was driving the Ferrari or the McLaren he wouldn't be on top. It's a car race after all.

 

[siffert_fan]

What gets me is that everyone pronounces Newey a genius, yet his cars were decisively outperformed by the cars designed by Byrne, when Schui was behind the wheel! It seems to me that that negates the "Newey is God" part of the argument to a large degree.

You should also remember tht the Bulls started the season as the third or fourth best car (behind Ferrari, McLaren and possibly Lotus as well) and through development have come to the position they are now in. You can ascribe that progress entirely to Newey if you like, but doing so is an insult to every driver in F1, as it implies that they make no contribution to the cars whatsoever.

 

[Galahad]

What gets me is that everyone pronounces Newey a genius, yet his cars were decisively outperformed by the cars designed by Byrne, when Schui was behind the wheel!

Well, except in 1997-99. But the point is valid, neither talented designer nor talented driver can do it all on their own.

Vettel is clearly one of the best drivers out there. Whether he's the best or not is something of a moot point, since it cannot be proven, and even if it was, people would disagree. Many didn't like the manner in which he won his title last year, either because of the endlessly dull legality rumour mill grinding away, or many fans wanting someone else to win, or it making the title battle rather boring, and many of the races too. Red Bull aren't a team that garners much affection either. Doesn't matter though, does it? He still has to get the job done, and he does it very well - to my eyes, as well as anyone else out there.

 

[Bus Stop Chicane]

Do people expect Vettel to go to Adrian Newey and say " Look Ade, great job with the car again this year but some faceless Brits think I'm only a World Champion because of the car so could you make a bit of an arse of the 2013 car so I can prove them wrong?

Schumacher gets labelled as the best driver of all time and the circumstances were the same but I don't hear him having to listen this crap about his titles.

 

[siffert_fan]

Schumacher gets labelled as the best driver of all time and the circumstances were the same but I don't hear him having to listen this crap about his titles.

On here, Schumacher has been called by some, essentially, a cheating hun bastard that did most of his winning in a ferrari that anyone could have won in.

 

[Brogan]

On here every forum on the internet, Schumacher has been called by some, essentially, a cheating hun bastard that did most of his winning in a ferrari that anyone could have won in.

Fixed.

 

[aaron8831]

Hello all. I'm new on here and wanted to just add my thoughts on the topic. While Vettel is clearly a very good driver I have to agree that he has been in a superior car. In my mind Alonso has done the best driving this year when he has clearly been fighting the Ferrari at different points this year.

 

[Jen]

Welcome aaron8831.

 

[Bushi]

Hello all. I'm new on here and wanted to just add my thoughts on the topic. While Vettel is clearly a very good driver I have to agree that he has been in a superior car. In my mind Alonso has done the best driving this year when he has clearly been fighting the Ferrari at different points this year.

Yeah, the poor lad had a real struggle with his car all year.