FIA Ferrari's team orders WMSC hearing

[gally5]

Oh well, not overly surprised, poor decision in my opinion, which I'm fully aware in the grand scheme of things counts for absolutely nothing! Unfortunately though it appears that now a team can break the rules in order to get the rule scrapped. That is worrying to me.

It is a pity though, as I thought Ferrari had changed while it was Kimi/Massa at the team, maybe that was just the nature of the drivers though.

 

[GeoffP]

Oh well, not overly surprised, poor decision in my opinion, which I'm fully aware in the grand scheme of things counts for absolutely nothing! Unfortunately though it appears that now a team can break the rules in order to get the rule scrapped. That is worrying to me.

It is a pity though, as I thought Ferrari had changed while it was Kimi/Massa at the team, maybe that was just the nature of the drivers though.

Completely agree, another Governing body has declared it's enforcement of the rules completely unneccessary.

Interesting thought with Kimi/Felipe, does tend to make you think of team order requirements with Fernando/Jarno, Fernando/Lewis, Fernando/Helsinho and now Fernando/Felipe.... How much were Ferrari deciding and how much honouring their contract terms?

 

[Wombcat]

It's a rule that can;t be enforced, because you can virtually never prove that there are teamorders, so to me it makes perfect sense that it is reviewed.

 

[GeoffP]

Fair point, I agree it should be reviewed, but Ferrari were caught - red handed, so to speak. The message I hear is that you can now choose to break the rules that are hard to catch you breaking, because if you are caught....

 

[sportsman]

Seem to recall Massa be held up in the pits in Brazil 2007 when Kimi won the WDC.

 

[MCLS]

and what happened at China in 2008, Raikonnen practically let Massa past into the hairpin

 

[racecub]

Words fail me.

 

[Wombcat]

Fair point, I agree it should be reviewed, but Ferrari were caught - red handed, so to speak. The message I hear is that you can now choose to break the rules that are hard to catch you breaking, because if you are caught....

But even in this case there is no definite proof that they were issuing teamorders.

 

[Jru]

Fair point, I agree it should be reviewed, but Ferrari were caught - red handed, so to speak. The message I hear is that you can now choose to break the rules that are hard to catch you breaking, because if you are caught....

That to me sounds somewhat like the flexible wings. Everyone can see that they are doing it but the teams cannot be stopped without definite proof. It is similar here - everyone knows it is going on - Ferrari made it abundantly clear but not to the extent that you can prove it. In the flexible wings it is the problem of where the reference plane is, here it is that it cannot be one hundred percent proved that the 'Alonso is faster than you' message meant 'let him past'.

No-one would say that points should be removed from teams whose wings flex and likewise I think the team orders rule here is unenforceable. In one case the tests need to be changed to obtain proof and in the other the rule reviewed. The thing I think that Ferrari deserve the most punishment for is their response which seemed very arrogant, and when coupled with their reaction at Valencia makes me think that they maybe need to have their attitude altered ... however the FIA see fit

 

[Brogan]

I'm not sure I agree with that.

The FIA statement has made it clear that Ferrari were found guilty of illegally implementing team orders by the race stewards.
The WMSC upheld that so they accept that Ferrari are guilty of a breach of rule 39.1.

All they decided today was not to impose further penalties.

After an in depth analysis of all reports, statements and documents submitted, the Judging Body has decided to confirm the Stewards’ decision of a $100,000 fine for infringing article 39.1 of the Sporting Regulations and to impose the payment of the costs incurred by the FIA.

Formula One Sporting Regulations

39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

 

[Jru]

With the threat of legal action depending upon the outcome could any ruling could anything have been upheld? It is possible that the WMC saw that nothing could be done but did not want to condone Ferrari's action so did nothing bar saying that Ferrari were guilty. I accept I had forgotten that the WMC had made it sound like they were finding them guilty and chosing to do nothing, but either way I think that would have been the outcome.

 

[Speshal]

I've read all the press and all the comments (I even went on 606 hudder

Basically it boils down to another black stain on Ferrari's already chequered history and that the price they are willing to pay is $14285 per point to get Fernando Alonso to the top.

 

[Andrea_Moda_Rules]

I begrudgingly think that the decision is right.

And what now is looking like the beginning of the Ban on Team Orders I also begrudgingly think that is right too.

The thing is Team Orders really never went away, weather its on track in the pitlane or even strategy calls. We've seen it from most of the teams who have battled for the Champ since 02.

Also any sanction against Ferrari would of set a precedent for the future. And the rules would have to of been applied to the letter of law too, If Ferrari lets say got kicked out of the Champ for what happened in Hockenhiem. It would also mean that if driver no2 let driver no1 through at the last race where driver no1 would win the title if ahead of no2 but lose it if behind then by applying the letter of the law they would have to have the same treatment no matter how stupid would be to apply the penalty.

To be honest ive always been against the Ban on Team Orders. It was a knee jerk reaction to what happened in Austria 02 and i believe in what is a team sport too Teams should be allowed tell freely do what they like with the drivers as long as it doesn't or tries to affect the other drivers racing too. i.e Singapore 08.

Most teams have done this with common sense. Only doing it when necessary. Ferrari have always been the exception.

 

[Brogan]

I disagree.

I would call what Ferrari did at Germany favouritism, rather than team orders.

If the positions were reversed, there would be just 18 points between Massa and Alonso, which is a 2nd place finish.
Hardly worthy of team orders being called with 8 races to go.

I seem to recall a certain Spanish driver having independent observers installed at one team to ensure there was no favouritism.

Hypocritical to say the least.

 

[Andrea_Moda_Rules]

Team Orders is still team orders what ever the reason for it.

I see what your saying though and for what ever reason weather its because they think Alonso is more capable or just because they don't like the cut of massas jib, Its a team sport and Ferrari should be allowed do how they see fit to win the title.

Don't get me wrong i don't like what ferrari did. but most teams have a more sporting attitude to it. Its a shame that Ferrari will only back one driver, but theyv'e done it for years now. It wasn't a problem in lets at 98 because Undoubtly M Schumacher was considered a more capable driver then Eddie Irvine.

Then if you start banning/penalizing teams on those grounds. then it starts getting more shaky.

Its impossible to regulate anyhow. Its a silly rule, teams have been doing it since 02 so ineffectual. and it was never a huge problem before austria 02 anyhow. People just accepted it happens.

*EDIT*
On a slight side note.

Just watching Australian GP 2010 on justin.tv, and watching Massa holding up none other the Fernando Alonso

 

[gally5]

To be honest I'd love to hear the Hockenheim stewards views on this decision. The fact they sent it to the WMSC after imposing the maximum fine would suggest one of two things, they didn't want to take the heat for the giving the punishment, or they felt it needed a harsher penalty than they were in a position to give.

The other question I have is one for my own sanity really, I'm sure at some point I read/heard they were being charged with a breach of article 151(c) of the FIA code, yet I see no mention of it in the reports. Can anyone confirm this or correct me!

 

[Brogan]

The other question I have is one for my own sanity really, I'm sure at some point I read/heard they were being charged with a breach of article 151(c) of the FIA code, yet I see no mention of it in the reports. Can anyone confirm this or correct me!

You are indeed correct.
This is from the original FIA document issued during the German GP.

Team Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro

Session Race

Time 15:07

Offence Breach of the Article 39.1 of the FIA 2010 Sporting Regulations and of Article 151.c) of the 2010 FIA International Sporting Code.

Penalty Fine $100,000. The case will also be referred to the FIA World Motorsport Council for further consideration.

This is why I always download every document from every race

 

[gally5]

Cheers Brogan, good to know I've not gone mad!

I assume this means the WMSC decided to drop this charge as I didn't see any mention of it yesterday. Will have to wait to read the press release they put out today I suppose.

 

[Brogan]

So this is interesting.
This is what Jean Todt has to say on the matter:

"Before you say you are guilty, you need to be able to prove that you are guilty," Todt said in an interview with the BBC.

"And if you understand all the parts that have been asked, everyone has denied that it was a team order."

When asked to respond to suggestions that, despite Ferrari's denials, many people believed the outfit had used team orders,
Todt said: "I tend to agree as well."

He said that the WMSC could not hand out further sanctions as they couldn't prove that team orders had been issued.
Yet they upheld the original charge issued by the stewards?

Something really doesn't add up here.
Either they're guilty or they're not.
If the WMSC couldn't prove that team orders had been used then surely they can't uphold the original $100,000 fine?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86490

 

[Jru]

I think that kind of backs up what I said last night: The WMC were hamstrung by a lack of proof even if they thought Ferrari were guilty as hell. All they could do was confirm the original punishment that Ferrari did not appeal. They could not push or further charges without proof however they couldn't rescind the first punishment without looking even more like 'Ferrari international assistance'*, their only course of action was to uphold the unchallenged stewards decision.


*sorry mods are we allowed alternate names for organisations?

Mod comment - No problem but thanks for asking

FB