FIA Ferrari's team orders WMSC hearing

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
So judgement day for Ferrari is here.

What does everyone think the outcome will be?
A ban for team and/or drivers? A (bigger) fine? Points deducted?

Personally I think there will be some sort of suspended sentence and if there is anything more then I expect Ferrari will launch some kind of counter action outside the FIA "court".

The rights and wrongs of team orders have been debated ad-infinitum so this is primarily about the hearing and any punishment they may receive.

The WMSC has almost unlimited power when it comes to awarding penalties, especially when it concerns clause 151.c which is related to bringing the sport into disrepute.

Ferrari have today made a veiled threat that they will leave the sport if the proposed 2013 engine rules come into effect but this is more than likely just a bit of sabre rattling on their part to try and mitigate any penalty that may be handed down.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
According to the Telegraph Alonso & Massa won't attend in person, but will be available by conference call if required. Ferrari showing their contempt for the process or do they already know the outcome?
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
I thought Alonso and Massa were attending in person? At least that's what I read yesterday.

Considering they are involved with the incident in question, I find it odd that they're not required to attend and testify.

As usual, the FIA "court" leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
Autosport are also confirming that they will not attend which I also find a little odd as they are the main protagonists in said case.

I might have this completely arse about face but wasn't the stewards fine at Hockenheim all about team orders and the WMSC hearing is all about out favourite FIA rule 151.c (from memory) Bringing the sport into disrepute? Or is it to look at both charges?

If it's just team orders, then I agree with the general concensus that it will probably be a suspended ban, a rap on the knuckles and a large donation to the retired drivers fund (fine)

If it's about 151.c we've seen some fairly harsh penalties in the past for infringement of said rule - maybe a deduction of WCC points for the round/season (as it was a team decision, albeit with tacit acceptance from the drivers)

My tuppence worth.
 

Soumya

Rookie
The harshest punishment will be probably a deduction of WCC points earned in Hockenheim. The most likely punishment is a suspended ban & a very heavy fine.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Below is the press release from the FIA which, if I read it correctly, means Ferrari are being "invited" to the WMSC to discuss breaching both rule 39.1 and 151 c. One thing I take from this press release is that Ferrari have alreday been found guilty by the stewards and the WMSC hearing is simply to decide if additional punishment should be meted out.

On 25 July 2010, on the occasion of the Grand Prix of Germany counting towards the 2010 Formula One World Championship, the Stewards of the meeting, after hearing the persons concerned, noted an infringement by the Scuderia Ferrari of:

- Article 39.1 of the 2010 Sporting Regulations ("Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited")
- and Article 151 c) of the International Sporting Code ("Any of the following offences (…) shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules (...) any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally").

In the light of the information in their possession, the Stewards decided to impose a fine of $100,000 on the Scuderia Ferrari and to forward the dossier to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

On the basis of that decision and of the inquiry report, and following the receipt of a report sent by the Stewards to the FIA, the FIA President has decided, in conformity with the new rules of disciplinary procedure adopted at his initiative on 11 March 2010, to submit the case to the judging body of the World Motor Sport Council.

The disciplinary hearing of the World Council will be chaired by the FIA Deputy President for Sport and will take place in Paris on 8 September 2010.
 

MajorDanby

Motorsports' answer to Eric the Eel
Contributor
Personally I think that Ferrari need a penalty that is harsh enough to show them they cannot just try to dictate rules to the FIA and teams, and then blatantly ignore ones they don't agree with.

Saying this, I don't think the punishment will be harsh. At worst I can see them getting fined, and loosing WCC points from Germany. However, it is much more likely they will get a suspended race ban and have to pay a bit more money.

Interestingly there is a titbit on 606 today from Czar saying that Ferrari are not happy with the regulation changes for 2013 (engine) and there is this supposed quote from Stefano Domenicali:

Stefano Domenicali said:
Depending on how the 2013 rules are configured, Ferrari is open to seeking new challenges in Le Mans or the major American championships."

And, "Anyone who thinks F1 would be the same without Ferrari is wrong.

I find the timing... convenient... that they have released this mere hours before their WMSC hearing.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Didn't Ferrari use the Le Mans "blunt instrument" before the rule changes in 2009? I have some sympathy for the view that F1 without Ferrari would, in some way, be diminished in the same way it was when Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell (and many others) disappeared. But, as has been said before, Ferrrari need F1 as much, or more, than F1 needs Ferrrari.

Intrigued by the "American" Championship quote as don't the open wheel series use a spec chassis? Ferrari off to NASCAR perhaps, that's going to get their middle class, 50+ European consumers really excited...
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
I for one am sick of Ferrari trying to blackmail F1 all the time.

Good riddance to them I say if they decide to leave.

It's the same trick Renault played prior to the Singapore hearing, stating they would withdraw if punished harshly.
That worked, didn't it?
 

sobriety

Pole Sitter
It's the same trick Renault played prior to the Singapore hearing, stating they would withdraw if punished harshly.
That worked, didn't it?

In some ways yes, as renault themselves weren't particularly hard hit by it, but individuals were, which must be a worrying precendent for Domencalli (sp) et all...
 

MajorDanby

Motorsports' answer to Eric the Eel
Contributor
Even if it is a completely unrelated comment to the upcoming WMSC hearing, I think it is fully time to call Ferrari's bluff.

The engine regs have been agreed by FOTA and it seems to be that Ferrari are the only ones that have a problem with them. Maybe because Ferrari have never really built any similar engines and will have no experience to call upon?

Anyway, this incessant threatening of withdrawal has been pulled form the bag one to many times. It is time for everyone else to go,

"Ok then Ferrari, you don't like the rules, then you don't need to play by them. Enjoy yourself playing about in the lower formulae, and we will see you back here this time next year, with your tail between your legs"

Would I like to see Ferrari gone from F1? No, not at all. Would it be worth a year without them to show they can no longer dictate policy? Absolutely.
 

gally5

Rookie
I can't see much beyond another (maybe suspended) fine, or a suspended race ban.

I'm sure its been discussed before, but I am unsure so my apologies for asking, is the race result actually settled so to speak or could either Ferrari driver be given a time penalty/DQ'd from the race etc, or is it just the whole team that can be penalised at this hearing?

As for Ferrari's (very timely) threats to pull out, well i guess that's just Ferrari for you. As Brogan said, it's a similar ploy to Renaults just before the singapore hearing, which backfired a bit. For the individuals involved anyway! The Renault team itself, well, arguably they are in much better shape now!
 

sportsman

Sidecar racers have the biggest cojones
Contributor
Its difficult to disagree with those comments.
But I think that much of this "sabre rattling" from Ferrari is down to their diminished power in the FIA and F1 generally.
No longer it appears is the FIA an acronym for Ferrari International Assistance.With the advent of FOTA and Ferrari's one off yearly payment of $50 million for simply being "err um" Ferrari gone they now just another team.
So they now have adopted this "its our ball" if we can't have our own way we will go.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
gally5 said:
I'm sure its been discussed before, but I am unsure so my apologies for asking, is the race result actually settled so to speak or could either Ferrari driver be given a time penalty/DQ'd from the race etc, or is it just the whole team that can be penalised at this hearing?
Well this is an interesting point as apparently once the results are finalised on a Sunday, they can't be changed.
This is why for example Massa now can't be investigated for being outside his grid position at Spa and no-one (except Brundle) noticing.

However, in the past, teams and drivers have been disqualified or penalised well after the event.
Tyrrell is the first one that springs to mind and I'm sure there are others.

Unless the rules have changed since then?
 

gally5

Rookie
Brogan said:
gally5 said:
I'm sure its been discussed before, but I am unsure so my apologies for asking, is the race result actually settled so to speak or could either Ferrari driver be given a time penalty/DQ'd from the race etc, or is it just the whole team that can be penalised at this hearing?
Well this is an interesting point as apparently once the results are finalised on a Sunday, they can't be changed.
This is why for example Massa now can't be investigated for being outside his grid position at Spa and no-one (except Brundle) noticing.

However, in the past, teams and drivers have been disqualified or penalised well after the event.
Tyrrell is the first one that springs to mind and I'm sure there are others.

Unless the rules have changed since then?


I was wondering if the wording of the stewards decision had an effect on it, as i remember hearing along the lines of the fine was the maximum they could do and sent it on to the WMSC. The question i guess becomes, did the stewards finalise the result or is it still preliminary
 
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