Grand Prix 2019 Russian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Onwards to Sochi in one of those frustrating season where we do have three teams in the mix for wins but somehow we have absolutely no title fight kicking off whatsoever. Hamilton has not even had to do his usual post summer blitz to get his massive title lead but has merely gone into Alain Prost mode where he just picks up podiums and consistant results whilst the others go up and down. His nearest rival is his own team mate and he is being anchored down by his own team from challenging Lewis because they are scared of their drivers getting in each others way and giving wins away to Red Bull and Ferrari. So Lewis is laughing and two and half race wins in front in the championship.

So no title fight but we are getting good racing for once. If Ferrari had not messed up so badly with set up and strategy at the begining of the season then it's clear they would have been in contention with Merc, certainly with LeClerc anyways. After Charlie boy was politically swindled out of his third win in a row last time out I'm fully expecting him to drive angry in Russia, which was something he did often in his GP3 and F3 days. It is impressively fast but often ends with a smash. His illustrious team mate has been a shadow of his former self all year but suddenly turned up when he hasn't all year at Singapore. If we ignore the strategy swindle you have to say Vettel had an impressive weekend and drove beautifully. The worrying thing for him was though that even on form he only beat his young team mate via strategy rather than pace. It's possible the win might inspire a revival though. I genuinely hope so as would love to see an on form Vettel mixing it with Hamilton, LeClerc and Verstappen.

Speaking of Max I'm giving his own paragraph to officially doth my cap to him. All year he has been consistently fast, he's had race craft, he's had guile and he has basically looked like the complete racing driver. This is something i've never seen before and often wondered if I would see. Don't get me wrong I always knew he was a fantastic driver on his day but now I see he can do it over a season. Respects to you sir.

Away from the main contenders I'm paying close attention to some of the midfield drivers at the moment as there is a change in the wind. The much maligned Antonio Giovanazzi has found a lot of pace since the summer break. Whilst he has a tendency to get into an accident and not get the results from it the old adage is that it's better to have a fast driver that crashes than a slow driver who plays it safe. Maybe it's time we reassessed him. Similarly we might need to have a look at Piere Gasly too. Before the season started the media decided the story was that Gasly was under pressure and might be dropped. Low and behold it happened! However he is now at Torro Rosso and has had some quality drives (Singapore was probably his best drive in F1) whilst his replacement at Red Bull Albon has not really got much better result than Piere did. Maybe Gasly is going to show he is a capable driver just that most people going head to head with Max Verstappen are going to look ordinary.

So that's the runners and riders but what of Sochi? Well unfortunately it's a pretty dull track with one really good corner. I think last year it may have had no overtakes at all. However it's very harsh to blame the circuit because some of the best GP2 and GP3 races I have ever seen have been held he where the cars were three wide going through turn 3 on nearly every lap. So will the racing improve with the front teams now closer? Maybe. Unfortunately we won't have the Singapore effect where the middle teams are brought close enough to the action to influence it but we may get a few fiesty moves.

Who is going to win? Well I'll let you guys debate that but how about this? Have the rubles been put down by the great Bear hunter? Will we suddenly see the track clear and a certain Dani Kvyat come to the front to complete one of greatest F1 comebacks of all time? I'd love to see that race so let's hope so!
 
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Okay I've read the entire thread thoroughly before I commented on this.

I'd just like to say I think Vettel made his choice and he had his reasons for it. Almost anything else I say has pretty much already been said except this. A lot has been made of Vettel ignoring team orders and as such being a naughty boy for it. Maybe he is but he's far from the first to do so.

I was curious as I wasn't here in 2016 but I wondered how the members reacted to Hamilton breaking the rules when Mercedes repeatedly told him to stop backing Rosberg up in Abu Dhabi in 2016. Apparently (according to the pole I saw) out of 47 votes 85% think he did the right thing. So it's okay for him to break the rules and not Vettel? Yes, I know, Vettel had an agreement with Leclerc where Hamilton didn't with Rosberg, but I will refer you to Monza when Leclerc broke the qualifying agreement, so under playground rules, Leclerc broke the first agreement, you could argue Vettel just did it back to him.

That's my view anyway, as my good friend Warweezil used to say, YMMV (your milage may vary) :)

Oh and for the record, I also believe Hamilton drove a good race there and when he took the lead I actually thought he deserved it. I know, some of you have fainted in shock, you never thought you'd see the day I'd say something like that did you? No, I haven't been on the wacky baccy, I promise :snigger:
 
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Hamilton was fighting for the title in the last day of the season when the team had already won the constructors championship and the team had already promised they could fight to the finish. The team did not want Hamilton to let his team mate through but stop backing him into another driver, Hamilton needed Rosberg to be overtaken in order to win the title. It's like comparing lemons and fish.
 
No. Let's ask some of you a question. Instead of trying to argue that the people who think Vettel did wrong are flawed/prejudice on their view why not argue what Vettel did was correct? Why not try to convince people like that rather than trying to catch then out? Has that ever worked ever in the history of the internet or humanity not does it just get people backs up?

Rather than concentrating on the poster or the person's view let's talk about the subject. Anything else is diversionary.
 
It is hard to say just how good Leclerc is. This is only his second year in F1. Vettel clearly had the edge on him through Montreal...and then the situation reversed. There appears to have been a drop-off in Vettel's performance.

Races.......Qualifying........Points.............Results
1-7..............6-1....................100-72............1 pole vs 1 pole and 2 FLs
8-16............0-9.....................94-143..........2 FL and a win vs 5 poles and 2 wins

Part of the problem is that we actually do not know just how fast Vettel really is. In 2007 he was outqualified by Liuzzi. He then held the advantage over his teammates for the next six years, but they were Bourdais and Webber. We then had the odd 2014 season where Ricciardo outshowed Vettel just like Leclerc is outshowing Vettel now. And then four years holding the advantage over Raikkonnen (a truly mystifying driver), and now suddenly he is again being buried by another teammate.

It does appear that whenever Vettel encounters a significant teammate he folds. One wonders if that is because of 1) his emotional moods, 2) because of issues with team/car, or 3) because he is not simply as fast as people think.

But, at this point, based upon Vettel's performances, I can't blame Ferrari for favoring Leclerc. Vettel will have to show what he is capable of in the first half of 2020, or otherwise his reputation and career are shot.



Well, I am not sure who among the current crop of 20 drivers has a worse record of "bad behavior towards his team or his teammate" except maybe for Magnussen.


I have found another interesting article addressing the speed issue, you can find it here. It seems that like for like Vettel was faster than Leclerc, during the race (the other way round was true in qualy), both in Singapore as well as in sochi
 
No. Let's ask some of you a question. Instead of trying to argue that the people who think Vettel did wrong are flawed/prejudice on their view why not argue what Vettel did was correct? Why not try to convince people like that rather than trying to catch then out? Has that ever worked ever in the history of the internet or humanity not does it just get people backs up?

Rather than concentrating on the poster or the person's view let's talk about the subject. Anything else is diversionary.


It's very simple: if Vettel not complying with team orders is bad why not applying the same rule to the others. It seems that since you can't argue your case, because you perfectly know that what Leclerc did at Monza was the same that Vettel did at sochi, you write "rather than concentrating on the poster or the person's view" which IMHO is truly offensive as I didn't write anything about you, I simply wrote something that you couldn't refute.

Also when did I try to argue that "the people who think Vettel did wrong are flawed"? let's get real please

Frankly I find your post totally inappropriate given that we are all here to enjoy ourselves talking about our passion.

You don't like Vettel, fair enough, I don't have problems with that, what gets on my nerves is when I see time and again double standarda at play. If some of you guys here didn't always keep on bashing Vette, with arguments that I find childish at the very best, I wouldn't try to argue his case (I have clarified that I think that Vettel has some very serious issues to address)
 
why not argue what Vettel did was correct?

because right or wrong is irrelevant here, by the commonly used standards disrespecting an agreement is wrong, by the standards of top F1 drivers it's what happens all the time, so either we use the same standards for everyone (and in that case, if what Vettel did was wrong by the very same token what Leclerc did was equally wrong and we could go on for ever with similar examples) or IMHO we have a problem. Were Rosberg or Hamilton respecting the agreements that they took before the races? what about Senna and Prost? Pironi and Villeneuve? Lauda and Regazzoni? do you want me to go on? But the bad guy is Vettel... 🙄
 
Not seen any Italian press because it would be interesting to see who they point the finger at. Binotto whilst trying to keep a Team Ferrari image let it slip that they did ask Vettel to move over

the general consensus seems to be that Ferrari were wrong in forcing Vettel out of the lead and that he was faster than his team mate. However they also say that the relationship between Vettel and Ferrari hasn't been ideal for quite some time (I didn't know that). Vettel is criticised more for his character than for his performance (apparently he's very very stubborn). I had seen many articles criticizing Vettel for keeping a copybook with all the info on the car settings, apparently it didn't go down very well with the team (and I can understand why, it looks as if the driver doesn't trust his engineers), I get the feeling reading some articles, including by people very close to Ferrari like Alberto Amntonini, Franco Nugnes or Leo Turrini, that the relaionship broke down some time ago and that Ferrari have made up their mind and took the view that Leclerc is their future (I guess that this time they made the right choice of driver, Leclerc is already capable of fighting for the WDC despite being only 21)
 
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"but mum everyone was doing it"

Sorry but that again is diverting away from the subject. I need you to tell me why Vettel's actions were correct not why I'm wrong in thinking they are not correct.
 
Well, I also think with the right car, right conditions...and might I add, right environment, Vettel is very, very fast. But, he is moody. We have seen these drop offs in the performances more than once before.

what bothers me about the Vettel bashing brigade is that they have very sound arguments to use like the ones that you correctly pointed out but those arguments are never mentioned by anyone apart from you.

I think - and obviously I could be wrong - that with Vettel the key question is: how good is a driver who can't drive around the problems of his car?
 
"but mum everyone was doing it"

Sorry but that again is diverting away from the subject. I need you to tell me why Vettel's actions were correct not why I'm wrong in thinking they are not correct.

I never said that a driver disrespecting the team orders was correct!!!!!!!!!! I said that they all behave like that (with the exception of the Bottas or Barrichello of this world), it's different.

And if everyone is more or less the same the issue that I raise is why him? (and before Vettel it has been the turn of Alonso, Schumacher, etc)

For this reason I think that you are the one who is diverting away from the subject: if forgetting to respect an agreement is wrong, and you base that on ethics, why in one case you get so excited and in an identical one it doesn't look like being a problem? are ethics different when we talk about different people? I think not, for me ethics are the same when we talk about Vettel or Leclerc (or anyone else for that matter) so if one has to be blamed for the very same reason I think that the other has to be blamed as well.
 
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The fact is Vettel disobeyed team orders, there is no question whether it was right or wrong, Vettel has a contract, what it contains we are not privy too, however what his employers do about it is between Ferrari and Vettel, we may disagree or not but it isn't within our hands, it will be sorted with or without our input. It's what's known as tough:thinking:
 
Publius Cornelius Scipio so if you admit that he acted dishonourabley and was in the wrong why is everybody making out people are prejudice against Vettel for saying it? Very odd.

because such an argument is used only against Vettel ;)

sorry if I'm being honest but let's say that after some very plesant months in here I have come to the conclusion that a number of members don't like Vettel very much. This doesn't bother me per se, we all have drivers that we don't like (in my case Mark Webber, Ala Jones, Marc Marquez - even though I admit that he's probably one of the greatest riders ever, Dale Earnhadt, Phil Read, etc), what bothers me is that rather than talking about Vettel's weaknesses (and I'm referring to the fact that unless he has a car that suits him he doesn't perform) the argument that I see used time and again is that he's a bad sport: nice guys don't become WDC!

In a sense I prefer straight talking like Brogan who's post on the other discussion made me laugh, he's honest about his feelings, I find that refreshing, I'm sure it's nothing personal against Vettel and that he doesn't wish him anything bad. I don't have anything personal against Marc Marquez I simply rejoice when he gets beaten (sadly that doesn't happen very often, maybe one day a rider will come that can beat him, my hopes for the moment are with Fabio Quartararo)
 
what bothers me about the Vettel bashing brigade is that they have very sound arguments to use like the ones that you correctly pointed out but those arguments are never mentioned by anyone apart from you.

I think - and obviously I could be wrong - that with Vettel the key question is: how good is a driver who can't drive around the problems of his car?

Yea, I am not sure how much is the car and how much is the driver. His lack of performance in 2014 was bizarre. He looked at time to be the fastest driver, but simply did not seem focused enough to put it all together. Also, look at 2016. First half of the season, he outqualifies Raikkonen 8-3. Second half of the season he is outqualified 2-8. We see a similar drop off in performance this season, where his looks stronger than Leclerc through Montreal, and then now can't beat him in qualifying for 9 races in a row. This sort of tells me that the problem is not the car, or the driver adjusting to the car, the problem is the driver. He gets demotivated and underperforms, especially in the second half of the season.
 
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Yea, I am not sure how much is the car and how much is the driver. His lack of performance in 2014 was bizarre. He looked at time to be the fastest driver, but simply did not seem focused enough to put it all together. Also, look at 2016. First half of the season, he outqualifies Raikkonen 8-3. Second half of the season he is outqualified 2-8. We see a similar drop off in performance this season, where his looks stronger than Leclerc through Montreal, and then now can't beat him in qualifying for 9 races in a row. This sort of tells me that the problem is not the car, or the driver adjusting to the car, the problem is the driver. He gets demotivated and underperforms, especially in the second half of the season.

I can understand 2014, he was coming from 4 consecutive WDCs, emotionally it must be deamnding, when he realised that his car wasn't at the level required to win another WDC he let go. This year he was good until Canada, I guess that THAT decision took its toll on him, Sergio Marchionne used to say that he was a German with the emotionally intensity of a man from Southern Italy. With the most recent updates to the car he looks fast to me, in qualifying he still makes some mistakes but during the last couple of races IMHO he was at his best
 
Well thank you for coming on this site to point out the error of our ways. Actually Publius Cornelius Scipio if you bother to read through many posts you'll find some of the people you are referring too have always championed Sebastian Vettel but just do not think he is infallible and justify everything be does. I think you may have mistaken 'Vettel hating' for people disliking being told what they should and should not think.

It does make me was that some members of this forum can no longer look at things in a rational manner and have to accuse others of prejudice just because they do not agree with them. As a member of 9 years this is something very very new.
 
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