2011 Team mates comparison - #12 McLaren

Brogan said:
There was only one flag in it all season.



That was not the deciding factor.
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the fact that everyone keeps banging on about Lewis being faster , qualifying ahead of Jenson. forget one important thing its not a sprint but being the one to see the chequered first to decide where they finish in the championship

even Button admits Hamilton is one of the fastest drivers he's had to go up against and is not too bothered if he gets beaten in quali so as long as he's around the top 5 or so to be in with a shout of the race and beating his teammate

Most drivers would have started panicking if they realised they kept getting thrashed in quali by their teammate
 
Button 12 podiums
Hamilton 6 podiums
----------------------------------

Retirements
Hamilton 3 -2 accidents and one mechanical
Button 2 - mechanical and pit stop error

Lewis penalties which cost him key points

Malaysia - weaving from 6th to 8th
Monaco - missing the chicane in quali probably cost him a podium
India - yellow flag ignored another potential podium lost due to grid penalty
HUngary - spinning the car around without due care cost him 2nd place probably
SIngapore - clipping Massa cost him another podium
 
My opinion (being a Hamilton fan) is that Button clearly out-drove him over the course of 2011. Button's 2nd half of the season was very impressive and he generally got the most of out the car. Hamilton could have often matched or beaten him but made far too many mistakes or was unlucky, or careless - whatever you want to call it.

You've got to look at qualifying sessions such as Monaco, Singapore, Suzuka and India as times where Lewis really should have been higher up on the grid and was not generally because of issues during Q3. In Monaco, Singapore and Suzuka you seriously have to question what his side of the garage was playing at and at India you have to question Lewis' mind set in practice. Is it not slightly coincidental and ironic that at ALL 4 of these races Lewis ended up crashing with Massa. Had his qualifying gone as it should (and even been on pole potentially 2 or 3 times) then he would have been no where near Massa.

2011 was a strange season for Lewis and Button just stuck the knife in and showed up all his mistakes by often driving flawlessly with calculated decisions. When it comes down to it though Lewis is still faster than Jenson - I think Jenson even knows this deep down. But Lewis showed remarkable weaknesses during 2011 that compared to Vettel make him look mediocre at times. I don't think Lewis will ever be able to have the same mindset as Vettel - I can't imagine Lewis ever winning near all the races in the season like Vettel did. He just somehow always manages to make things difficult - almost a trait of the English/British in sport in general. But without a doubt, on his day Hamilton is still untouchable and I still believe he has the most talent of any current driver.

Interesting on what Alonso had to say the other day:- http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/01/18/alonso-vettel-still-slightly-below-the-level-of-hamilton/

I think 2012 will be very interesting.
 
tranquility2k9 said:
My opinion (being a Hamilton fan) is that Button clearly out-drove him over the course of 2011. Button's 2nd half of the season was very impressive and he generally got the most of out the car. Hamilton could have often matched or beaten him but made far too many mistakes or was unlucky, or careless - whatever you want to call it.

You've got to look at qualifying sessions such as Monaco, Singapore, Suzuka and India as times where Lewis really should have been higher up on the grid and was not generally because of issues during Q3. In Monaco, Singapore and Suzuka you seriously have to question what his side of the garage was playing at and at India you have to question Lewis' mind set in practice. Is it not slightly coincidental and ironic that at ALL 4 of these races Lewis ended up crashing with Massa. Had his qualifying gone as it should (and even been on pole potentially 2 or 3 times) then he would have been no where near Massa.

2011 was a strange season for Lewis and Button just stuck the knife in and showed up all his mistakes by often driving flawlessly with calculated decisions. When it comes down to it though Lewis is still faster than Jenson - I think Jenson even knows this deep down. But Lewis showed remarkable weaknesses during 2011 that compared to Vettel make him look mediocre at times. I don't think Lewis will ever be able to have the same mindset as Vettel - I can't imagine Lewis ever winning near all the races in the season like Vettel did. He just somehow always manages to make things difficult - almost a trait of the English/British in sport in general. But without a doubt, on his day Hamilton is still untouchable and I still believe he has the most talent of any current driver.

Interesting on what Alonso had to say the other day:- http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/01/18/alonso-vettel-still-slightly-below-the-level-of-hamilton/

I think 2012 will be very interesting.
Click to expand

I sometimes do wonder why Lewis did not take the initiative to avoid a repeat of Monaco and messing up his qualifying because all he did was moan about it to the press afterwards....Senna would have never let that happen to him he was the master of qualifying

Like Lewis admitted he needs people who are close to him around him at race weekends to support him..pity he has not told Simon Fuller to get lost or tell him that he needs to be around more.

It seems like Fuller has got the better deal out of being Lewis' manager and let him take all the beatings each week on and off track

Alonso has more respect for Lewis than Vettel- there is a bit more of needle and jealously between those two due to Luca seeing Vettel as a future Ferrari driver and Vettel thought Alonso was a bit aggressive forcing him onto the grass at Monza - shades of Schumacher forcing Alonso on the grass at Silverstone 2003.
 
Il_leone said:
Button 12 podiums
Hamilton 6 podiums
----------------------------------

Retirements
Hamilton 3 -2 accidents and one mechanical
Button 2 - mechanical and pit stop error

Lewis penalties which cost him key points

Malaysia - weaving from 6th to 8th
Monaco - missing the chicane in quali probably cost him a podium
India - yellow flag ignored another potential podium lost due to grid penalty
HUngary - spinning the car around without due care cost him 2nd place probably
SIngapore - clipping Massa cost him another podium
Click to expand
We know what happenned to hamilton..how hard he was dealt with by the stewards and his accidents. Whats the point in just stating them again? Brogan has already given an excellent analysis of Lewis v Jenson giving both sides of the coin.
 
racecub said:
We know what happenned to hamilton..how hard he was dealt with by the stewards and his accidents. Whats the point in just stating them again? Brogan has already given an excellent analysis of Lewis v Jenson giving both sides of the coin.
Click to expand
------

then you did not need to reply then to my quote if you did not see the point :whistle:
 
Would other drivers still be scared of partnering Lewis then now Jenson has beaten him?

Also will the relationship between the two change ? I go back to Prost / Senna because Prost said he got on well with Senna in 88 despite the ferocity of the battle except for the pitwall incident at Portugal but everything turned sour over the alleged double cross at Imola...

Could history repeat itself?
Or will Lewis start acting a bit more like Alonso who refused to share set up data after the fall out?
 
Lewis and jenson get on well. I cant see there being any fall out.
On Senna and Prost...I watched the Senna movie the other day (a present from santa) . I didn't realise how badly they screwed Senna in 89...no wonder he was determined not to let it happen again in 90. It made me think even more how similar was Senna's situation to Lewis'..Im not just referring to driving styles but the way they both were/are treated by other drivers and the establishment. I think a lot of what Senna was up against is forgotten when we look back . :embarrassed:Sorry. Ive gone off the point of the thread. To get back, no I dont think history will repeat itself. Whilst I think Lewis is every bit as confident in his own ability as Senna was, I dont think he's as confident in himself to stand up to the establishement......unfortunately.
 
racecub said:
Lewis and jenson get on well. I cant see there being any fall out.
On Senna and Prost...I watched the Senna movie the other day (a present from santa) . I didn't realise how badly they screwed Senna in 89...no wonder he was determined not to let it happen again in 90. It made me think even more how similar was Senna's situation to Lewis'..Im not just referring to driving styles but the way they both were/are treated by other drivers and the establishment. I think a lot of what Senna was up against is forgotten when we look back . :embarrassed:Sorry. Ive gone off the point of the thread. To get back, no I dont think history will repeat itself. Whilst I think Lewis is every bit as confident in his own ability as Senna was, I dont think he's as confident in himself to stand up to the establishement......unfortunately.
Click to expand


That depends if Red Bull will dangle a carrot for him to join them?

In 1989 Senna did seem to blow up and have more reliability problems but PRost felt he was treated unfairly by Honda

Jenson toughened up after CHina and the incident at Montreal was a statement to Lewis - both Senna and Prost would have done the same

What would make Lewis more mad is if Vettel coasts to another title which everyone's sake I hope not
 
Il_leone said:
2012 be make or break for Lewis depends really on the car Mclaren come out with in comparison with Red Bull
Click to expand
Yes. That will affect Lewis more than his team mate. He knows when he's on form he can handle any team mate, but if the car won't hack it, then he's stuffed.
 
yeah that is an odd one, the general theory seems to be that Button needs a car perfectly balanced and when it is he is unbeatable and when it isn't he struggles, whereas hamilton is better at driving around a cars problems.
 
teabagyokel said:
Sorry, did you just say that Lewis Hamilton is more dependent on having a good car underneath him than Jenson Button is? Because I cannot imagine where you got that idea from.
Click to expand

That's what I gathered from the post, but I thought I rather not comment as I must have mis-read it.
 

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