Agree with TBY...
Poll Who is better: Fernando, Lewis, or Sebastian?
- Thread starter Jos the Boss
- Start date
I have held the view since early last year that whatever "it" is, Seb has it. Only time will tell if I am right, but i think he is the one we will tell our grandchildren about... Is that a concise enough analysis? Of course not 
, but its all I have time for 
, but its all I have time for 
It's funny after reading Damon hill's interview on the BBC website that he felt that the rules had changed to make F1 more competitive to prevent the MS back-to-back series, and I agreed with him.
Then you come to this poll of, to be honest, widely read and avid F1 followers and the current back-to-back winner is a poor third.
I find I can't split the drivers, and suspect a lot of you feel the same, but am still surprised that the Digit man fared so badly... You can read a lot into that one
Then you come to this poll of, to be honest, widely read and avid F1 followers and the current back-to-back winner is a poor third.
I find I can't split the drivers, and suspect a lot of you feel the same, but am still surprised that the Digit man fared so badly... You can read a lot into that one
Apropos of nothing I have voted for Fernando.
2 x WDC Beating Schumacher to get them - Then you have Seb again a 2 x WDC and has beaten some very good drivers to do it but to me, currently, there'll always be that niggling feeling that both have them have been achieved with the fastest outright package vs the other cars. Lewis I think is the best outright racer out there making moves that others wouldn't dream of because he knows he can do it.
As FB said, if you could roll them all up into one you'd have the ultimate driver.
2 x WDC Beating Schumacher to get them - Then you have Seb again a 2 x WDC and has beaten some very good drivers to do it but to me, currently, there'll always be that niggling feeling that both have them have been achieved with the fastest outright package vs the other cars. Lewis I think is the best outright racer out there making moves that others wouldn't dream of because he knows he can do it.
As FB said, if you could roll them all up into one you'd have the ultimate driver.
landogeorgelewis1
Champion Elect
This may surprise alot of people but i've voted for Alonso. The reason been he brought the end of the dominance from the old Schumacher and raced him hard in winning those 2005-06 titles. Also for me Alonso is far more consistant compared to the other two at this moment in time.
But in years to come this will become a Lewis v Seb battle when Fernando retires from F1.
But in years to come this will become a Lewis v Seb battle when Fernando retires from F1.
Vortex
Race Winner
Hmmm, toughie, might have to sit on the fence too.
It depends, best this season or best best?
Best this season its Vettel with Hamilton the worse as he’s had a bad season.
Best overall, hard to chose, its between Hamilton and Alonso as despite now being a double world champion Vettel still feels like he’s yet to show everything.
So on these workings its perhaps Alonso as he contends for both versions, but its marginal between all 3 of them.
Hmmm, where’s the fence…
It depends, best this season or best best?
Best this season its Vettel with Hamilton the worse as he’s had a bad season.
Best overall, hard to chose, its between Hamilton and Alonso as despite now being a double world champion Vettel still feels like he’s yet to show everything.
So on these workings its perhaps Alonso as he contends for both versions, but its marginal between all 3 of them.
Hmmm, where’s the fence…
I think Brawn's recent comments re Vettel were quite good and I think he has some good points.
I personally can't decide between Alonso and Hamilton. TBY has raised some very good points about Alonso but I love the stealthy way he approaches an overtake over a few laps and you would be hard pushed to find a driver that has the awareness of his competitors the way Alonso has.
And then you see Hamilton making the car do things it shouldn't be able to and doing the sweetest of overtakes.
I personally can't decide between Alonso and Hamilton. TBY has raised some very good points about Alonso but I love the stealthy way he approaches an overtake over a few laps and you would be hard pushed to find a driver that has the awareness of his competitors the way Alonso has.
And then you see Hamilton making the car do things it shouldn't be able to and doing the sweetest of overtakes.
At this precise moment in time, Tuesday October 11, year 2011 AD, I find it impossible to make an argument against Sebastian Vettel. 
I do, however, reserve the right to argue otherwise when the time is right. This may come as soon as Sunday mind you!
I do, however, reserve the right to argue otherwise when the time is right. This may come as soon as Sunday mind you!
racecub
Champion Elect
Clearly the best three on the grid. Lewis is my favourite, and thats becuase even from GP2 i found his driving sensational. he came in as a rookie and beat Alonso-would have/should have/could have had the championship in his rookie year but for a huge political fuss, a corrupt FIA leader, a jealous team mate and some silly errors. Driving in the same car that puts Lewis above Alonso for me. Vettel I would have had in third place until this year and this year he's hugely impressed with his consistency(ok in a vastly superior car) but very impressive never the less. he's also answered a few of the questions hanging ove him regarding fighting through the pack-again albeit from a position of strength (huge points lead) making the risks he takes less damaging if they dont come off. So I think Vettel slides just above Alonso . Lewis has had his worst year ever and the tyre and regs dont suit him (going round slowly saving tyres)but what he's done before that leaves him top for me in terms of talent.
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
Vettel.
He's beaten Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, Button, Webber, Massa, Rosberg while most of them are still in their prime and on top of their game.
He hasn't merely beaten them, he's beaten them by an astounding margin and has left a few of them even humbled and Shell Shocked.
Lewis barely won 1 title and is having a very hard time being the top driver even in his own team.
Alonso hasn't won a title in years. In fact since Hamilton and Vettel arrived on the scene, he's been error prone and hasn't won anything to write home about. He's made too many mistakes and his Brazilian teammates either crash the car purposely for him (Singapore 2008) or jump out of the way.
In comparison, Vettel had no favours handed to him by Webber and Hamilton's had to fight like a dog against Button.
Massa has let Alonso sail past him at Hockenheim in 2010 and then again in Australia, Hungary and Japan in 2011 while acting like a mine-clearer giving Alonso a tow during Monza qualifying a month ago. Pathetic!
Alonso would have his work cut out if he came up behind the likes of Webber or Button in a Grand Prix "race" if they were his teammates. So, imagine what would happen if Nando came up behind a teammate like Hamilton or Vettel in a "race"?
Ooops...we already had the Nando-coming-up-behind-teammate-Lewis-in-a-"race" as a scenario already, didn't we?
I mean what's the excuse now?
It's not like Alonso is in a title fight, is it?
So why did Massa let Alonso blow by him at Suzuka without so much as a look? Why go out in Battle Formation in Qually at Monza to give Alonso a huge helping of Tow?
So you qualify ahead (like Massa has done in Hungary, Belgium and Japan) and then just move over so Alonso can get optimal first call at the pits? It would be laughable if it wasn't so friggin' sad.
Can anyone in their right mind here on Clip The Apex imagine Webber or Button or Schumacher or Hamilton or Vettel or even Rosberg doing the above for Alonso with the WDC all over?
It's sometimes hard for Alonso's fans to see the forest through the trees. The 2 titles he won were pre-Hamilton/Vettel. Nothing since.
They'd dismantle him in the same team now. No bloody way either of them would be out-qualified by Alonso consistently and no bloody way the two would let Alonso past without the biggest fights he's ever faced in his entire career.
He's beaten Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, Button, Webber, Massa, Rosberg while most of them are still in their prime and on top of their game.
He hasn't merely beaten them, he's beaten them by an astounding margin and has left a few of them even humbled and Shell Shocked.
Lewis barely won 1 title and is having a very hard time being the top driver even in his own team.
Alonso hasn't won a title in years. In fact since Hamilton and Vettel arrived on the scene, he's been error prone and hasn't won anything to write home about. He's made too many mistakes and his Brazilian teammates either crash the car purposely for him (Singapore 2008) or jump out of the way.
In comparison, Vettel had no favours handed to him by Webber and Hamilton's had to fight like a dog against Button.
Massa has let Alonso sail past him at Hockenheim in 2010 and then again in Australia, Hungary and Japan in 2011 while acting like a mine-clearer giving Alonso a tow during Monza qualifying a month ago. Pathetic!
Alonso would have his work cut out if he came up behind the likes of Webber or Button in a Grand Prix "race" if they were his teammates. So, imagine what would happen if Nando came up behind a teammate like Hamilton or Vettel in a "race"?
Ooops...we already had the Nando-coming-up-behind-teammate-Lewis-in-a-"race" as a scenario already, didn't we?
I mean what's the excuse now?
It's not like Alonso is in a title fight, is it?
So why did Massa let Alonso blow by him at Suzuka without so much as a look? Why go out in Battle Formation in Qually at Monza to give Alonso a huge helping of Tow?
So you qualify ahead (like Massa has done in Hungary, Belgium and Japan) and then just move over so Alonso can get optimal first call at the pits? It would be laughable if it wasn't so friggin' sad.
Can anyone in their right mind here on Clip The Apex imagine Webber or Button or Schumacher or Hamilton or Vettel or even Rosberg doing the above for Alonso with the WDC all over?
It's sometimes hard for Alonso's fans to see the forest through the trees. The 2 titles he won were pre-Hamilton/Vettel. Nothing since.
They'd dismantle him in the same team now. No bloody way either of them would be out-qualified by Alonso consistently and no bloody way the two would let Alonso past without the biggest fights he's ever faced in his entire career.
I've voted for Vettel.
Since these comparison questions crop up so regularly, I've prepared a detailed response in graphical form - intended as an illustration of my viewpoint, not really as an incitement to further discussion. Disagree with me by all means, but I'm not going to change my mind...
Ignore the y-axis, there's no 'scale' to this as such, the drivers' positions are all relative to each other. Obviously the Ides and Firmans would be well off the bottom of the chart, I've just concentrated on the top drivers to keep things clearer.
Since these comparison questions crop up so regularly, I've prepared a detailed response in graphical form - intended as an illustration of my viewpoint, not really as an incitement to further discussion. Disagree with me by all means, but I'm not going to change my mind...
Ignore the y-axis, there's no 'scale' to this as such, the drivers' positions are all relative to each other. Obviously the Ides and Firmans would be well off the bottom of the chart, I've just concentrated on the top drivers to keep things clearer.
To demonstrate my opinion on each driver I've prepared this easy to read Pie Chart...............
oh sod it I can't be bothered.
I'm joining the others on the fence - it may be pointy but its the only place to be right now.
oh sod it I can't be bothered.
I'm joining the others on the fence - it may be pointy but its the only place to be right now.
Actually bugger it - Vettel deserves more votes than that - he's just walked to a double title for christ sake!
Galahad,
Great stuff, as always. To me, the most interesting trend on the graph is that of Button. To be trending upwards so steadily after such a lengthy career seems exceptional to me.
Great stuff, as always. To me, the most interesting trend on the graph is that of Button. To be trending upwards so steadily after such a lengthy career seems exceptional to me.
I am not really sure, I have for a while thought, currently there's no "best driver" on the grid.
Let's start with Alonso (alphabetical order) - Alonso he may have the "complete" title, but he's made a lot of mistakes for his standards since 2007.He seems consistent, he gets everything out of the car most of the time, has some determination. But sometimes that red mist sinks and really does get the better of him, eg. Silverstone 2010 and Valencia 2010. He is after all a man, not a machine. I questioned his ability last year in the first half of the season if he was the driver that he was made out to be, his second half of the season answered it, he was great. All of his team-mates though seem to have number 2 status, bar that particular one that got under his skin. I would like to see him again up against a team-mate with equal status, I have no doubt that he would come up on top against all except one or two, but I would still like to see it as the situation after Hockenheim, if you give Massa the win, the points between them would have been Alonso: 116 Massa: 92, less than a race win behind.
Hamilton - He to me was probably the best driver on the grid in the first half of 2010, he was consistent, reliable, didn't make mistakes. Then all that changed, and he seems to have gone down ever since the second half of 2010. On his day he can be the best out there eg. Germany 2011, but there are also a fair few days when he can be like a rookie, and lately, there's been many of those races. Burst on to the seen in 2007, followed it up with the WDC in 2008, achieved great results in the 2009 car but ever since, he's been a bit under the radar. Has raw pace, but the consistency and reliablity is somewhat waning.
Vettel - He is a driver that learns from his mistakes, and seems to just get better, there where questions over whether he his racecraft was up to scratch, and whether he could overtake, they don't seem to be questions anymore since he has answered them this season. He has some ability to pull out a great lap when needed, (you may say it's because he has had the best car, in his Toro Rosso years he would get the car into the top 10.) Consistent and reliable this year, also has amazing determination and worth ethic. People might pull out the "put him in a slower car" card, but he's already proved what he could do in a slower car in the Toro Rosso from 2007-2008, in his first full season in F1 he achieved great results in a tight mid-field battle in 2008, with BMW, Renault, Toyota and Red Bull.
Judging by this season and last season, since all 3 guys where at the front, I would probably have to give it to Vettel, but the only way to really judge, is when all 3 guys race each other in their prime.
I know he's not in the poll, but I feel as if I should mention him, Robert Kubica. Last year, he was consistent, relaible, and he only finished 6 points behind Rosberg in a car that wasn't as good as the Mercedes. He also knew when to be aggressive, had the precision, his 2008 season was another great one in a car that hadn't been developed for the 2nd half of the season he managed to stay in the title hunt up until the last race. After last season I really though the "Most complete driver" title should have been his. It is a shame that he's not in a top car, (will he ever will be?) the crash couldn't have come at a worse time for him. I just thought he was worth mentioning.
Let's start with Alonso (alphabetical order) - Alonso he may have the "complete" title, but he's made a lot of mistakes for his standards since 2007.He seems consistent, he gets everything out of the car most of the time, has some determination. But sometimes that red mist sinks and really does get the better of him, eg. Silverstone 2010 and Valencia 2010. He is after all a man, not a machine. I questioned his ability last year in the first half of the season if he was the driver that he was made out to be, his second half of the season answered it, he was great. All of his team-mates though seem to have number 2 status, bar that particular one that got under his skin. I would like to see him again up against a team-mate with equal status, I have no doubt that he would come up on top against all except one or two, but I would still like to see it as the situation after Hockenheim, if you give Massa the win, the points between them would have been Alonso: 116 Massa: 92, less than a race win behind.
Hamilton - He to me was probably the best driver on the grid in the first half of 2010, he was consistent, reliable, didn't make mistakes. Then all that changed, and he seems to have gone down ever since the second half of 2010. On his day he can be the best out there eg. Germany 2011, but there are also a fair few days when he can be like a rookie, and lately, there's been many of those races. Burst on to the seen in 2007, followed it up with the WDC in 2008, achieved great results in the 2009 car but ever since, he's been a bit under the radar. Has raw pace, but the consistency and reliablity is somewhat waning.
Vettel - He is a driver that learns from his mistakes, and seems to just get better, there where questions over whether he his racecraft was up to scratch, and whether he could overtake, they don't seem to be questions anymore since he has answered them this season. He has some ability to pull out a great lap when needed, (you may say it's because he has had the best car, in his Toro Rosso years he would get the car into the top 10.) Consistent and reliable this year, also has amazing determination and worth ethic. People might pull out the "put him in a slower car" card, but he's already proved what he could do in a slower car in the Toro Rosso from 2007-2008, in his first full season in F1 he achieved great results in a tight mid-field battle in 2008, with BMW, Renault, Toyota and Red Bull.
Judging by this season and last season, since all 3 guys where at the front, I would probably have to give it to Vettel, but the only way to really judge, is when all 3 guys race each other in their prime.
I know he's not in the poll, but I feel as if I should mention him, Robert Kubica. Last year, he was consistent, relaible, and he only finished 6 points behind Rosberg in a car that wasn't as good as the Mercedes. He also knew when to be aggressive, had the precision, his 2008 season was another great one in a car that hadn't been developed for the 2nd half of the season he managed to stay in the title hunt up until the last race. After last season I really though the "Most complete driver" title should have been his. It is a shame that he's not in a top car, (will he ever will be?) the crash couldn't have come at a worse time for him. I just thought he was worth mentioning.
There's no science or fact behind it whatsoever, it's just my arbitrary opinion. I think he's still improving, but I can't offer any evidence for it.
OK, guys, the thread's not about Button, shall we move on?
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
Galahad, that's pretty kool.
Raikkonen seemed to be consistently in the Top 2 or Top 3 or Top 4 after his rookie year.
Any idea where Kubica would stack up?
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