Time For McLaren To Employ Team Orders "Soon"?

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Before any team orders are given what we really need is ...
Webber, Alonso, Hamilton (either or in top three), Massa...Schumacher and ... 3 others..........then Vettel. Sadly it won't happen.

So, you're giving up on Alonso? So, if Massa is ahead of Alonso then Massa shouldn't move over? Yes?

 

[teabagyokel]

If Hamilton is as much better than Button as Ray suggests, then of course there is unlikely to be a situation where Hamilton will require Button's support as he's a mile ahead of him anyway, a bit like Alonso/Fisichella.

So the original question is incongruous with the argument that Ray is putting forward.

 

[Slyboogy]

Oh Ray just chill out a bit!

 

[Josh]

Josh, don't worry about it, my friend.

You saw the following:

Lewis was in 2nd...Jenson was in 5th ...BEFORE their third pit stops.

So when Vettel (lap 36), Hamilton (lap 37), Webber (lap 38) made their stops, Button went into 2nd place - behind Alonso. Alonso and Button then stopped on lap 39.

Hope that clarifies why you saw Button ahead of Hamilton just before Button went in for his last stop.

Cheers, mate.

That was what probably confused me. Thanks

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Even if it's true that Button started with only 1kg of fuel more - and I don't know where that figure has come from - then he was certainly carrying much more by that stage of the race, as by McLaren's own admission Hamilton's consumption had been higher.

McLaren said that Button was within a kilo of Lewis's fuel weight so he would have encountered the same issue had he got to the end of the race. Also I dont think Button has ever passed and stayed ahead of Lewis other normal conditions ever.

Anyway Button himself said that he is no longer in contention, as he knows that mathematically this is incorrect he is therefore confirming that Lewis is number one and the only guy in the team able to catch Seb.

 

[The Pits]

Without knowing each drivers fuel consumption, I would suggest it is speculation to say that he would or would not have needed to save fuel.

It is also a leap to say that Jenson now sees himself as a number 2 and that only lewis is able to catch seb, as by that logic would it mean that after Lewis said the championship was over a couple of races ago that the opppsite is true?

Let's see what happens in Hungary before any judgements, as red bull may come back, and make this discussion a little less relevant!!!

 

[F1ang-o]

If Jenson were to be told he was number 2 from here on in this season, I think he would tell McLaren to stuff it where the sun doesn't shine. If not for the mistake of the right front wheel man in Silverstone and the errant part in Germany, he would still be ahead of Lewis in the championships. He probably would have finished ahead of Lewis in Silverstone as he was ahead of Massa at the time of his wheel falling off and in Germany he would have had a chance of finishing 4th as he can overtake, unlike Vettel, so he would easily have caught the battle for 4th in the closing stages.

So Ray, the only reason he is behind Lewis in the points is due to 2 DNFs in a row which were no fault of his own. Therefore, why should he accept a number 2 role, espacially as the DNFs could have happened to anyone and could still happen to anyone else in the title hunt?!?

Oh, and for someone who is so slow, its funny how when he went to McLaren, he got a win before his more illustrious team-mate..

Yeah......because he went in for tyres without ASKING.........Lewis had track position. ..............................so should have had first pit stop.
David Couthard pointed out (with glee) at a later race,...... when Lewis wanted a tyre change, that JB had track position, so Lewis was left struggling for two more laps & was overtaken because he had no grip. I hope Lewis took note.
I don't hate or even dislike Jenson...it's his sneaky behavior to gain advantage I don't like.

 

[F1ang-o]

The same argument can be applied in reverse.

If it had been Button who had retired in Canada and Hamilton who had won, there would be an even larger gap between them - 75 points, or 3 race wins.

Lewis should have held his line..... instead of taking avoiding action.
Lewis is hard...but fair.
I don't think he would want to win, other than by his own merit

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

If Hamilton is as much better than Button as Ray suggests, then of course there is unlikely to be a situation where Hamilton will require Button's support as he's a mile ahead of him anyway, a bit like Alonso/Fisichella.

So the original question is incongruous with the argument that Ray is putting forward.

Aha ha!

First of all, Button is a more talented and much more consistent Grand Prix driver than Fisichella was, so that analogy is incongruous to whatever i'm putting forward...as is your statement suggesting that I think Hamilton is "a mile ahead" of Button. I don't think so at all. I think Button is a very good driver indeed. I think, however, that Hamilton has a better shot than Button in the 2011 WDC.

Secondly, I put out stats in a previous post which - though favourable to Hamilton - does indicate that Button can and does out-qualify and out-score/race Hamilton about 27 to 34 percent of the time respectively.

So, statistically speaking, Hamilton - in 9 races - will find himself behind Button on the grid about 2 or 3 times and behind Button in the race about 3 times.

Ergo, statistically speaking, Hamilton will require some form of 'help' in those 2 0r 3 instances in the next 9 races (assuming the WDC is still open at the 9th (i.e. last) race).

If Hamilton out-scores Button on merit in the next race or two or three on the trot, it will make it easier for Button to subjugate himself to Hamilton for the team's sake ... but only if Vettel's points gap is being reduced and reduced.

That help - later on - may take the form of:

- Not fighting Lewis for position (i.e. not 'slowing up' Lewis) if Lewis looks like he's faster; or

- Allowing McLaren to optimize Lewis' Q3 or race or pitstop strategy at the expense of his own; or

- Acting as an experimental medium for information during FP 1, FP 2, FP3, or even qually or the race itself.

Makes sense, no?

 

[Slyboogy]

I think it's unfair to see "Button is much more talented than Fisichella", Fisichella like Trulli clearly got sabotaged by the big bold Flav.

Fisichella is probably as much talented as Button, winning in much lesser cars.

 

[Andyoak]

Almost agree but Button just nudges it in my book on talent.
Don't forget Button was also buggered by Flavio's management decisions...

 

[Slyboogy]

True

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Fisichella like Trulli clearly got sabotaged by the big bold Flav.

As did Button, if you recall.

I think it's unfair to see "Button is much more talented than Fisichella...Fisichella is probably as much talented as Button, winning in much lesser cars.

You slightly mis-quoted, my friend. I said Button was "more talented", not "much more talented".

I did, however, say Button was "much more consistent"...which is hardly untrue given just how inconsistent Fisichella really was. At Benetton, at Jordan, at Renault, at Force India...he was rather inconsistent at most places and he was alarmingly slower than Raikkonen at Ferrari.

I think if you could rate the Top 10 of 2000-2009, Button would be somewhere in the 6th to 10th range, behind...

Schumacher
Raikkonen
Alonso
Hamilton
Hakkinen

... and somewhere between...

Vettel / Montoya / Coulthard / Webber / Massa / Kubica

I don't think Fisi would even be ahead of Barrichello for 12th!

It's all opinion, of course. Cheers.

PS, it's the wrong thread...Perhaps you can start a "Giancarlo Fisichella" thread, Sly?

 

[RickD]

Yeah......because he went in for tyres without ASKING.........Lewis had track position. ..............................so should have had first pit stop.
David Couthard pointed out (with glee) at a later race,...... when Lewis wanted a tyre change, that JB had track position, so Lewis was left struggling for two more laps & was overtaken because he had no grip. I hope Lewis took note.
I don't hate or even dislike Jenson...it's his sneaky behavior to gain advantage I don't like.

That gave me a chuckle, have you got your foil hat close by?

Oh, you wasn't joking...

 

[ramilas1]

MB - near the end of lap 6 and the leader still holding on, the rest closely packed behind him.

DC - not sure the stewards won't be having a look at the amount of weaving though.

MB - must admit there have been a few multiple changes of position out there.

DC - this thread race is all a bit predictable now...... fancy a cup of tea?

MB - yeah, got any hob-nobs?

 

[Sarinaide]

"Box this lap"

 

[Slyboogy]

Massa well two races later, I can't remember how many points behind he was Raikkonen after Monza but I don't think it was many, but he started backing Raikkonen after then not that it mattered as Raikkonen then was on fire.

But it's kind of similar here, as Button is not that far behind Hamilton, but if they back Hamilton, who knows? Maybe he can just sneak it...

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I think Raikkonen was about 26 points behind Hamilton coming into Europe in 2007. That's the equivalent of 2 wins and a 3rd place.

Raikkonen needed to count on only 2 drivers to shave points from Hamilton: Alonso and Massa. This happened.

Hamilton needs to count on more than 2 drivers to shave points off Vettel because the gap is about 1 win greater. I think he can possibly count on up to 3 drivers (Alonso, Button, Webber) to take points from Vettel but thats a stretch because one of those 3 is in the same car as Vettel and, historically, slower (Webber).

If the Ferrari comes "too good", then Massa might spoil Hamilton's party by finishing ahead of him at a race or two.

It's a fine balance.

Hamilton needs McLaren to be the "best car" (so Button can finish 2nd) and for Ferrari to be second best car and strong enough that BOTH Ferraris can finish ahead of Vettel.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Going into the 2007 European GP Raikkonen was 18 points behind Hamilton having just won the British GP.

After the European GP Hamilton was 2 points ahead of Alonso (70 to 68), 11 ahead of Massa and still 18 points ahead of Raikkonen.

It was a crazy season with Spygate and the well documented fall out between Hamilton and Alonso. Hardly the kind of atmosphere where team orders would have worked.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Going into the 2007 European GP Raikkonen was 18 points behind Hamilton having just won the British GP...

...and, just immediately before that, having won the French GP.

Raikkonen won France - Britain back-to-back which closed him to 18.

Hamilton needs to go to Hungary with a victory in mind so he can also re-ignite his challenge with a similar back-to-back.

But he shouldn't go "all or none" and risk a DNF. In Hungary, he'll be better off losing the GP to Alonso and taking 18 points than tangling with the Ferrari and watching Vettel pick the points up like a Vulture!