The 2010 season

[Muddytalker]

1988 McLaren 97.3 (!)

That was the transitional year from turbos (McLaren, Ferrari, Lotus, Arrows, Zakspeed, Osella) to non-turbos (everyone else) though, and not only was the Honda the best turbo out there, but McLaren had Senna and Prost (pre-civil war) in a Gordon Murray chassis - The ultimate combination. The only race they didn't win was Monza when (with Prost already retired) Senna impatiently tried to lap Jean-Louis Schlesser (who was only covering for an ill Mansell) and collided, leaving Berger and Alboreto to claim a Ferrari 1-2 just weeks after Enzo's passing away. [From memory, I think it took the stewards 3 or 4 attempts to prove the fuel tank was below the capacity limit...]

Didn't the Leyton House Marches make up a small percentage by leading at Japan as well, or was that the following year?

 

[FB]

It's strange, I remember 1988 very well and although Mclaren dominated it was still quite exciting as Prost & Senna were racing each other and it only takes 2 cars to make a motor race. The problem with the Brawn dominance last season was that Barrichello couldn't challenge Button. Let's hope Vettel up's his game in the next races and presents a challenge to Webber. Presumably he needs to be on pole otherwise is race is run by the end of the first corner...

 

[Galahad]

It was extraordinary. Ivan Capelli led one lap for March at Suzuka; Berger was the only other driver to get ahead of the McLarens (at Silverstone as well as at Monza).

Another triumph for our old friend the 'equivalency formula'. Still, any half decent car with those two drivers was going to be very hard to beat - as they proved again in '89.

 

[KekeTheKing]

It was extraordinary. Ivan Capelli led one lap for March at Suzuka; Berger was the only other driver to get ahead of the McLarens (at Silverstone as well as at Monza).

88 was extraordinary indeed. At Japan, Capelli led by a car length as they crossed the S/F line. He was ahead of Prost for all of about 8 seconds. Aguri Suzuki had spun right in front of the pair going into the final chicane, and Prost was slow out of it.

I posted the 88 Japan Highlights on YouTube a while back. If you jump ahead to the 4:15 mark, you can hear Murray Walker's animated call of the action.

Berger also led in the Ferrari at Australia. He forced his way by Senna for 2nd, and slipstreamed by Prost for the lead.

It was so monumental that a car other than a McLaren came to the front, that I had to post this footage as well.

It didn't end well for Gerhard that day though.

 

[FB]

Has this thread lost its way?

Ferrari will have their F-Duct back for Turkey (according to ESPN) so I suppose we can look forward to seeing Nando taking turn 8 no handed. Red Bull should also have something F-Ducty, presumably Webber will be able to operate this with his chin whilst Vettel will only require one finger to operate his Pity Coulthard doesn't still drive for them as a universal chin operated system could have been employed.

 

[Brogan]

Has this thread lost its way?

Well it is a general thread so as long as there's a tenuous link to the 2010 season

Ferrari will have their F-Duct back for Turkey (according to ESPN) so I suppose we can look forward to seeing Nando taking turn 8 no handed.

Surely Ferrari won't be using it any longer considering it has been banned for 2011 on "safety grounds"?

Unless of course by "safety grounds" they mean "McLaren have managed to implement this better than anyone else, the same they did with KERS so let's ban it grounds".

 

[Enja]

Ferrari will have their F-Duct back for Turkey (according to ESPN) so I suppose we can look forward to seeing Nando taking turn 8 no handed.

Surely Ferrari won't be using it any longer considering it has been banned for 2011 on "safety grounds"?

Unless of course by "safety grounds" they mean "McLaren have managed to implement this better than anyone else, the same they did with KERS so let's ban it grounds".

I thought it was considered being banned because of "costs", despite it seeming like a very cheap way to get free lap time. This is exactly the kind of thing the FIA and FOTA should be promoting, but noooo, nooooo, noooo, we can't have ideas in F1, good lord, no.

It kind of strikes me : if Fernando Alonso decided he wants to drive for HRT, would they ban him for being too much of an advantage for the Spanish team?
*enter more sarcastic eye-roll smiley that Brogan really needs to introduce to CTA*


Anyway looking forward to Turkey (that's.. looking ahead, not actually looking forward to it), the Red Bulls will almost certainly be beastly through turn 8, could be quite the sight.

Have they ever actually taken it flat-out? I heard that they were supposed to but I don't think I've ever seen onboard telemetry where the driver doesn't lift.

 

[teabagyokel]

Flowchart.

 

[Brogan]

A quick comparison of the standings based on this and last year's points systems.

The biggest (and only) gainer under the new system is Mark Webber who would otherwise be in 3rd position, 2 points off the lead.
Surprisingly that's the only change.

2010 Points

Driver 			Points

Mark Webber 		78

Sebastian Vettel 	78

Fernando Alonso 	75

Jenson Button 		70

Felipe Massa 		61

Robert Kubica 		59

Lewis Hamilton 		59

Nico Rosberg 		56

Michael Schumacher 	22

Adrian Sutil 		20

Vitantonio Liuzzi 	10

Rubens Barrichello 	7

Vitaly Petrov 		6

Jaime Alguersuari 	3

Sébastien Buemi 	1

Nico Hülkenberg 	1



Team			Points

Red Bull-Renault 	156

Ferrari			136

McLaren-Mercedes 	129

Mercedes 		78

Renault 		65

Force India-Mercedes 	30

Williams-Cosworth 	8

STR-Ferrari 		4

2009 Points

Driver			Points

Sebastian Vettel	32

Fernando Alonso		31

Mark Webber		30

Jenson Button		27

Felipe Massa		24

Robert Kubica		24

Lewis Hamilton		24

Nico Rosberg		22

Michael Schumacher	8

Adrian Sutil		7

Vitantonio Liuzzi	2

Vitaly Petrov		2

Rubens Barrichello	1



Team			Points

Red Bull-Renault	62

Ferrari			55

McLaren-Mercedes	51

Mercedes		30

Renault			26

Force India-Mercedes	9

Williams-Cosworth	1

 

[teabagyokel]

A quick comparison of the standings based on this and last year's points systems.

The biggest (and only) gainer under the new system is Mark Webber who would otherwise be in 3rd position, 2 points off the lead.
Surprisingly that's the only change.

Interesting that the points have moved away from the man who's won most races...

 

[Muddytalker]

Kubica would also be ahead of Massa due to a 5th & 8th place beating 6th and 7th, but yep it's as you were, and the top 8 are all covered by a race victory with either points format REGARDLESS OF EDDIE AND DC CONTINUING TO TELL US THAT THE NEW POINTS FORMAT IS MAKING IT OH SO CLOSE THIS YEAR

Apologies for shouting, but they are doing my head in with this unresearched and plainly wrong 'insightful' comment each race weekend.

Incidentally, if we had returned to the 9-6-4-3-2-1 format, it would be thus:-

Webber 24
Vettel 23
Alonso 22
Button 20
Kubica 15
Massa 14
Hamilton 14
Rosberg 12

Personally, I think this is a more accurate measure of the season so far. Webber has 2 wins and is the man on form after a slow start, Vettel also quick and though being beaten has scored 2 podiums in the last 2 races, Alonso scoring heavy when not screwing up his own race prospects, Jenson has 2 wins but has been anonymous at other times. Then there's a small gap, Kubica getting the most out of an average car including 2 podiums (podia?), Massa & Hamilton both getting points but no big hauls, and Rosberg hanging on. Here though, only Kubica is within a win of the lead, which I would say is a fair reflection, at this time.

 

[Muddytalker]

Interesting that the points have moved away from the man who's won most races...

Nope, I've read this a few times and still don't get what you mean...

Taking the 'big' points of the winning drivers:-

Webber - 2 wins, 1 x 2nd
Button - 2 wins, 1 x 5th
Vettel - 1 win, 1 x 2nd
Alonso - 1 win, 1 x 2nd

Webber is top in the new and old, old formats, but Button is 4th regardless of which points system used as he's been a bit all or nothing, the other 3 winners have podiums to back up the win(s)

 

[Brogan]

Webber is top in the new and old, old formats

Webber is 3rd in the old format but top in the new format

Old

Driver			Points

Sebastian Vettel	32

Fernando Alonso		31

Mark Webber		30

Jenson Button		27

New

Driver 			Points

Mark Webber 		78

Sebastian Vettel 	78

Fernando Alonso 	75

Jenson Button 		70

 

[Muddytalker]

You missed an 'old' in my post - the 'classic' 9-6-4-3-2-1 points format has him on 24 points, 1 point ahead of Vettel.

Added - And this is the key, with regards to the debate over race wins v consistency.

9-6-4-3-2-1 - A win is worth 9 times a 6th place, 3 times a 4th place.
10-6-4-3-2-1- A win is worth 10 times a 6th place, 3.3 times a 4th place.
10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 A win is now only 3.3 times a 6th place, twice a 4th place.
25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 A win is now worth 3.1 times a 6th place, and only just over double a 4th place.

Therefore, winners are now rewarded less than times gone by, compared to simply finishing in the points.

 

[Brogan]

You missed an 'old' in my post - the 'classic' 9-6-4-3-2-1 points format has him on 24 points, 1 point ahead of Vettel.

I thought that was a typo
Now it makes sense.

Interesting then that of the last 3 scoring systems (including the current one) it's only last years where Webber loses out.

 

[teabagyokel]

I don't know where to put this, so I'll stick it here.

This year's Monaco Grand Prix was the third year on the spin that the driver in 3rd place has jumped the guy in second. Now I don't know if it is just me, but I feel that something can be done about this:



I know this is from a perspective view, but I feel that Kubica there is closer to Vettel than he is to Webber, and I have noticed this at Monaco for years. Am I just being paranoid, insane or anti-Monaco or is there less of a 'front row' at Monaco than at other Grand Prix?

Opinions?

 

[Brogan]

I think that the grid spacing is uniform, it's probably in one of the many regulations.

The reason why 2nd place on the grid is such a bad place to be at Monaco is purely due to the lack of rubber and the increased dirt, marbles, etc. as it's off the racing line.

There's not really much that can be done about it apart from to drive over that patch of road during practice as much as possible but then of course if you're in pole position, you want the guy in 2nd to have a bad getaway.

It is a bit silly though when the 3rd place person on the grid has an advantage over the person who out-qualified them.

 

[Enja]

I've always wondered why the drivers don't take the "shorter" route to the finish line next to the wall in Monaco.

Obviously they need to get to the left side for the optimal racing line into Saint Devote but I would've thought you would be able to gain a few hundredths by sticking to the right hand side, you only very rarely see it.

 

[teabagyokel]

I've always wondered why the drivers don't take the "shorter" route to the finish line next to the wall in Monaco.

Obviously they need to get to the left side for the optimal racing line into Saint Devote but I would've thought you would be able to gain a few hundredths by sticking to the right hand side, you only very rarely see it.

Good point, because you'll see it for sure in the Canadian Grand Prix. If anyone avoids the WALL OF CHAMPIONS, that is!

The normal rules often seem not to apply in Monaco though, maybe you'd be heading to close to the armco.

 

[FB]

Interesting article here from the Beeb on Williams not able to make new parts in time for Turkey but the line which caught my eye was this comment from Sam Michael:

Michael is hoping to see a performance boost from engine provider Cosworth at the Istanbul circuit this weekend

Now I may be stoopid but I thought engine development wasn't allowed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8702211.stm