Singapore 2008 under investigation

[GeoffP]

Of course it could just be that Piuet dumped it after a loss of concentration - His father did, I had to travel home from Silverstone underneath "armalat 5" after my friend picked up the side Nelson Piquet Sr's car after he got a weave on through what appeared to be a loss of concentration - these things actually do happen.

I really hope that's what they decide, although losing the grey haired Italian gentlemen could be a benefit of the alternatives

 

[Muddytalker]

Of course it could just be that Piuet dumped it after a loss of concentration - His father did, I had to travel home from Silverstone underneath "armalat 5" after my friend picked up the side Nelson Piquet Sr's car after he got a weave on through what appeared to be a loss of concentration - these things actually do happen.

I really hope that's what they decide, although losing the grey haired Italian gentlemen could be a benefit of the alternatives

This is the clincher for me. NPJ had spent 8 months out of control of an F1 car, now we are expected to believe he had tamed the beast so well he could throw it into the wall convincingly (and subsequently return to form for the next 10 mths).

 

[FB]

According to Paddock Talk, quoting a Spanish newspaper, a hearing has been pencilled in for the 21st September. Hmmm...

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/mo...e=article&sid=118281&newlang=&topic=1&catid=1

 

[teabagyokel]

Are Renault about to recieve another race ban?

 

[RickD]

Do you think they'll actually have to serve this one?

 

[teabagyokel]

If they're found guilty of rigging a race? I think that may be a slightly serious offence to be honest, Rick!

 

[RickD]

Yeah, but as its Bernies best mate you can never tell.

Honda got banned for 3 races for less than Renaults 1 race ban, but Honda actually had to serve it.

McLaren got fined £100m, Renault got off with the dsame offense.

Now, excuse me if i'm a little cynical when it comes to that greasy tub of lard..

 

[teabagyokel]

Well, I'm extremely cynical with regards to Briatore, but I think this is an FIA decision and Max Moseley recently singled Briatore (and only Briatore) out as a loony!

Now, I don't like Briatore. He's arrogant based on the success he enjoyed at Benetton & Renault in the middle of the last two decades by piggybacking on far more talented individuals. Few team bosses show quite as overt favouritism towards one driver in 2009 as does Flavio. His attempt to make QPR the first football club to get relegated after the billionaires took over is frankly embarrassing to the whole Football League!

I'm not sure he has had that much favouritism. Remember the ridiculous penalty slapped on Alonso at Monza in 2006 as the FIA did everything in their power to giftwrap the title to Michael Schumacher? I feel the letting off of Renault in Valencia is more to do with Alonso's sudden elevation to F1's poster child after Schumacher retired!

Now since Alonso has become F1's poster child he has personally done more to disgrace the sport than any driver in recent memory. His actions in 2007 would have left him out in the cold if he were not a double World Champion because the way he went about his time with McLaren was amateurish, confrontational and obnoxious. The whistleblowing against his own team for doing what every team in the paddock does was really a stain on his character.

I imagine that the FIA could not let Renault off if these unsavoury characters were convicted of fixing a race.

I wonder if Alonso has not just pulled the trick he did in 2007, when to get out of contract with McLaren he grassed the team up to the FIA. He clearly wants to be in red next year and this whistleblower lark worked last time. This is however assuming that there is evidence against Renault!

The person we need to hear from is Nelsinho Piquet. Was he hitting the wall deliberately? (It would almost be the perfect crime because no-one would cry foul at Piquet hitting the wall...!) Who knows? I would, however, always suspect dirty tricks where Alonso & Briatore are involved!

 

[teabagyokel]

Crashgate gets mad!

Its stepped up a notch, Renault have been charged:

"Representatives of ING Renault F1 have been requested to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Monday, 21 September 2009," read a statement on the FIA website.

"The team representatives have been called to answer charges, including a breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, that the team conspired with its driver, Nelson Piquet Jr, to cause a deliberate crash at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix with the aim of causing the deployment of the safety car to the advantage of its other driver, Fernando Alonso."

from BBC Sport

Now, correct me if I'm wrong pedants, but isn't Article 151c the one that kicked McLaren in the nuts in 2007?

Sporting Life have already called the saga "Crashgate". I prefer to call it "Alleged Deliberate Crash By Nelsinho Piquet in Order that Alonso should win the Singapore Grand Prix Gate" (maybe I'm nicking a trick off F1 Rejects here!)

However if Renault are found guilty, then it could cause Renault to be thrown out of this year's Championship - or even next years. If they're thrown out of next year's Championship, I'm sure any 2010 contracts Renault have will be void meaning their drivers will be able to seek alternative employment! Believe it or not, Fernando Alonso could be at Ferrari next season! I know, no-one saw that coming!

 

[Brogan]

This quote from James Allen's page seems to suggest the incident has been under investigation for some time, before Piquet was sacked.

The FIA has had an enquiry force looking into the Renault case for some time, I understand. This is not something which has been launched in the last few weeks.

Also, does this snippet relate to the alleged unfair treatment of Piquet or something else?

There are some suggestions that, as part of its investigations, the FIA has been looking at other instances, involving Renault, but these were not mentioned in today’s statement.

We shall have to wait and see who it was who "blew the whistle", if indeed there was one to blow.
As is usual with these things, eventually the truth will come out.

 

[teabagyokel]

Say Renault's records are expunged from the 2008 Championship... My calculations make the 2008 Championship look like this:

(I've only done drivers)

[color=#444444]1  L. HAMILTON 104[/color]

[color=#FF0000]2  F. MASSA 102[/color]

[color=#000080]3  R. KUBICA 83[/color]

[color=#FF0000]4  K. RÄIKKÖNEN 82[/color]

[color=#000080]5  N. HEIDFELD 67[/color]

[color=#444444]6  H. KOVALAINEN 56[/color]

[color=#800040]7  S. VETTEL 43[/color]

[color=#FF2222]8  J. TRULLI 38[/color]

[color=#FF2222]9  T. GLOCK 29[/color]

[color=#0000BF]10 M. WEBBER 29[/color]

[color=#000033]11 N. ROSBERG 22[/color]

[color=#0000BF]12 D. COULTHARD 14[/color]

[color=#000033]13 K. NAKAJIMA 12[/color]

[color=#00BF00]14 R. BARRICHELLO 11[/color]

[color=#800040]15 S. BOURDAIS 7[/color]

[color=#00BF00]16 J. BUTTON 4[/color]

I make it that Hamilton would extend his Championship winning lead by a massive 1 point and Kubica would take 3rd place away from Kimi Raikkonen's Ferrari! Other than the non-point scoring Force Indias (and Super Aguris) the only driver to be unaffected points wise would be Rubens Barrichello, who would stay in 14th position by virtue of Nakajima and Coulthard leapfrogging him!

 

[Brogan]

As anticipated, more details are starting to emerge.

A meeting between Nelson Piquet, Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds hours before last year's Singapore Grand Prix is central to the race fixing allegations surrounding the Renault team, AUTOSPORT has learned.
...
AUTOSPORT understands that key to what happened in the race is the discussion that took place in one of Renault's offices at the Singapore track on the Sunday, where race tactics were discussed between Piquet, team principal Briatore and director of engineering Symonds.

Sources claim that in evidence submitted to the FIA by Nelson Piquet, the Brazilian driver says he was asked by Briatore and Symonds to crash deliberately early in the race so as to help Alonso win.

Piquet says that he agreed to do so because he felt uncomfortable about his situation at the team, with Renault having not renewed his contract for 2009 at that time - and Briatore was stalling on making a firm commitment. Piquet suggests that he only went ahead and caused the accident because he felt he would be rewarded for his actions.

In his evidence, Piquet claims that he was taken aside by Symonds after the first meeting and instructured that he should crash on lap 13 or 14, shortly after Alonso's scheduled first stop, at Turn 17.

The reason this part of the track was singled out was because there were no cranes present there to lift the car away, so any accident would virtually guarantee a safety car.
...
Sources claim that the Singapore race-fix matter came to light on July 26 - the day of Piquet's last race for Renault in Hungary - when his father Nelson contacted FIA president Max Mosley to make him aware of what had happened.
...
A report in Italian magazine Autosprint also suggests that telemetry data from Piquet's car has emerged as another reason why the matter has gone to the WMSC.

At Turn 17 where Piquet crashed, normally the rear wheels of the Renault would lose grip on the exit - requiring the driver to ease off the throttle briefly. However, on the lap he crashed, Piquet kept accelerating even though the rear wheels had lost grip.
...
Symonds is also reported as saying: "It's true, during the Sunday meeting with Piquet the issue of deliberately causing a SC deployment came up, but it was proposed by Piquet himself. It was just a conversation."

Pretty strong stuff and now there's no doubt about who instigated the investigation.

However, the onus is on the FIA WMSC to prove guilt, rather than the various parties to prove their innocence so this could be difficult as it's basically Piquet's word against the rest.

I suspect though that the WMSC doesn't require proof or evidence in the same way a court of law does. Or does it?

What I find interesting is the FIA have access to the telemetry almost a year later.
Surely the FIA doesn't store all the data for years from all motorsports it governs, does it?

Note also that there is absolutely no mention of Alonso.
Whatever happens, it would seem he will escape unscathed.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78446

 

[Muddytalker]

Interestinger and interestinger.

As you say, at the moment it's all allegation and word against word, but I think this is telling:-

"Piquet's claims have, however, been denied by both Briatore and Symonds in documents that are believed to have been submitted with the FIA. Although they confirm that the meeting between the three of them took place, both suggest that it was Piquet's own suggestion to cause an accident."

This implies that the deliberate crash is fact, and now it's culpability that needs to be proved. I actually think Renault are now screwed, as I'm not sure what benefit there would be for Nelson to suggest throwing his race to help Alonso win. Even the most gentlemanly of drivers would struggle to be so generous to a teammate.

 

[RickD]

Interestinger and interestinger.

As you say, at the moment it's all allegation and word against word, but I think this is telling:-

"Piquet's claims have, however, been denied by both Briatore and Symonds in documents that are believed to have been submitted with the FIA. Although they confirm that the meeting between the three of them took place, both suggest that it was Piquet's own suggestion to cause an accident."

This implies that the deliberate crash is fact, and now it's culpability that needs to be proved. I actually think Renault are now screwed, as I'm not sure what benefit there would be for Nelson to suggest throwing his race to help Alonso win. Even the most gentlemanly of drivers would struggle to be so generous to a teammate.

Agreed, I can't see any driver doing this either, but I can quite easily imagine one morally repugnant italian slimebag asking (read FORCING) one of his drivers to do this.

, Flab..

 

[Brogan]

It looks like Alonso has escaped again*.

Fernando Alonso knew nothing of the alleged plan for Nelson Piquet to crash deliberately at last year's Singapore Grand Prix in a bid to help him win the race, AUTOSPORT has learned.

While the focus of the FIA's World Motor Sport Council hearing later this month now appears to revolve around what took place in a pre-race meeting between Piquet, Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds, it has emerged that Alonso was not involved in any of the tactics.

This quote is particularly interesting and potentially damning for Symonds:

Radio transcripts of the race, which have been obtained by the FIA, show that director of engineering Symonds did not share the concerns of fellow team members about making such an early stop – telling the team: "No, no, it's going to be alright."

Full story: Alonso unaware of alleged Renault plan

Judging by the way the leaks are being drip-fed to the media, it would seem Symonds has been set up as the fall guy with Piquet and possibly Briatore being complicit.


* By this I mean with regards to McLaren 2007 when he was let off with no punishment despite admitting to using the stolen data.

 

[cider_and_toast]

So it would seem from the evidence coming out in the press that the only word that can be applied to Renault is "Guilty". With that in mind the question should switch to what is an appropriate form of punishment?

Removing Renaults results from last season is hardly a punishment. The FIA would have to recoup the balance of the travel cost payments to reflect the team have been dropped to 10th place in the championship but you would expect Renault to have a fine in relation to any judgement anyway.

It would be correct however, to promote Nico Rosberg to the win, resulting in Hammy taking second place and Timo Glock third.

As to further punishment it's hard to imagine what else can be done. Perhaps removing the win from last year and docking Renault 10 points from this years score would be the most appropriate course of action. This would have the effect of dropping Renault behind Force India in the current WCC standings and also make them less likely to overtake the 7th placed team and gain the corresponding financial benifit.

It will be interesting to see how the FIA will handle this.

 

[Brogan]

Whoever is found guilty, I expect the punishment to be quite severe.

I wouldn't be surprised if lifetime bans are handed out, as well as a significant fine.

Of course, if 'Renault the team' are punished then that will more than likely be the end of their participation in F1.

At least the FIA don't have to worry about the WDC title switching from Hamilton to Massa if the race results are changed.
That would have opened a whole new can of worms...

 

[GeoffP]

Personally I hope Renault the Team do not receive a lifetime ban - some of the individuals, certainly, but Renault have played a large part in F1 as constructors and engine suppliers and all that would happen without them would be a move towards Max's dream of a single make series.

Also, since formula Renault would come under FIA jurisdiction, would this series also have to be governed by any penalty.

McLaren's penalty/fine in 2007 went too far, I believe that when behaviour such as this is unearthed the individuals should be held accountable for their actions moreso than the team - in business the phrase "controlling mind" determines where punishment falls - hands up who thinks Flavio lets anything happen without his say so.

 

[Brogan]

Not sure how genuine this is but it's purported to be NP's official statement to the FIA.

Statement of Nelson Piquet Junior to FIA

 

[FB]

Hell hath no fury like a Piquet scorned.

The only option for the FIA, if they believe NPj's account, is to ban Flabio and Pat Symonds from all forms of motor racing for life, surely? The consequences of this crash could have been catastrophic. I know the track is surrounded by fencing but imagine if a car had picked up a puncture as a result of Piquet's crash and ended up in a grandstand.

It's just too horrible to contemplate.