Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Mephistopheles]

I am at a complete loss as to why anyone can deny Seb's talent as an F1 driver I really cannot understand the people who continually put him down he won four world titles on the bounce he holds numerous other records in the sport he is a funny and likeable bloke, okay he does that finger thing but so what.

If any of you think you could do better than him then I suggest you man up and prove it, otherwise leave him alone for fuck sake...

 

[Andyoak]

Nah, where's the fun in that
Can't help my overwhelming sense of jealousy for someone younger, better looking, more talented, charming, funnier and probably speaks better English than me... Bloody Germans

 

[Bushi]

Some people just want their guy to win and are getting blinded with hate when they see some bloke dominate the field for four years and given them the finger......the index finger that is.

 

[Andyoak]

Well, he can't get everything right!

 

[Slyboogy]

The issue I have, not that I support the guy, is the fact people rave on about how he had the best car for four years.

He scored points on his debut, could have had a podium in his 5th race, bounced back from that accident and finished 4th straight after. Then in his first full season at Toro Rosso he outscored both the Red Bull drivers plus his team-mate Sebastien Bourdais put together.

Yet, he needs an amazing car for results. Right.

 

[FB]

I've just been reading Nigel Roebuck's "Chasing the Title" and there is an interesting chapter on Ferrari and how it lost it's way after the old man died and this was even more diluted when Schumacher arrived. Someone asked him after he and Irvine had just taken a 1-2 finish a question about Ferrari 1-2 finishes to which he replied "have Ferrari ever had a 1-2 finish before?" showing he had no understanding of the history of Ferrari and it's importance to F1.

Based on what I have seen of Vettel at Red Bull I believe he will become a fulcrum around which the team can focus and, in some ways, take it back to it's Italian roots and heritage and make it more Ferrari. I don't think either Scumacher or Alonso really realised the importance of the marque.

 

[cider_and_toast]

That sort of heritage doesn't seem to count for much in F1 these days. You only have to look at Ron's comments on his cars paint jobs.

Are you sure Vettel wants to be at Ferrari for the legacy of Ferrari or for the legacy of Schumacher at Ferrari ?? I think that makes a difference.

 

[teabagyokel]

I think Vettel knows his history.

 

[Il_leone]

Mephistopheles

Everyone has their driver they like and don't like and when they win the easiest point to allude to is the machinery they've had to do it because it contributes at least 70% to their domination and 30% driver. Very few exceptional drivers make it more driver factor over car.

If Vettel manages to turn around Ferrari in their current mess and lands the title and Red Bull go zooming down the wrong lane you have to give him credit for it. If we wants to do what Schumacher did ... it did not help Schumacher's legacy that he made it boring for everyone by not allowing his team mate to race him in his dominant years..


I will point to Casey Stoner who Rossi felt only won in a Ducati because first it was the superior tyres and then it was the bike but no other rider was able to ride as fast as Casey. When it was Rossi on a Ducati everyone was expecting some Valentino magic with his own team to help him and it took everyone by surprise not even he could sort out Ducati who would have operated under similar environment as Ferrari...this elevated Stoner's status

\This might be Vettel or he could go zooming down the wrong lane like J Villeneuve did ? Also a lot of promising drivers have had their careers ruined by their experience at Ferrari

 

[Incubus]

Are you sure Vettel wants to be at Ferrari for the legacy of Ferrari or for the legacy of Schumacher at Ferrari ?? I think that makes a difference.

-----------------------------------------------------

But one goes with the other though. The heritage of iconic teams isn't separate to that of its past drivers, it's partly based on it.

You could say Alonso, is probably more familiar with McLaren's history rather than Ferrari's, having by his own admission grown up a McLaren fan watching the Senna-Prost battles.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Il_leone it is unlikely that if Ferrari have turned a corner because of Vettel, he has not been there long enough. He may help to some extent during the coming season but that is still to be seen. At the moment Red Bull still look like the most likely to challenge Mercedes after a season in which Vettel was not prominent, but he may have helped there.

I still think that developers develop whilst drivers drive.

 

[Il_leone]

Incubus cider_and_toast Schumacher built his own legacy at Ferrari but it was not done the Italian way.. come to think of it Ferrari have only won the driver's title since the Commadore's death by running the team the non Italian way

The Commadore was an intimidating figure at Maranello but he did seem to be able to get Ferrari pulling in the right direction now and then and get things right...since his death its a spaghetti culture where they don't seem to pull in one direction together not even Prost or Alonso could deliver the title.. Schumacher could because Todt was able to do things his way even though Luca was not happy about it

Now that will be a challenge for Vettel under the current Ferrari restructure

 

[siffert_fan]

Under the Commendatore they were notoriously chaotic. Just ask Phil Hill!

What they need most is one person in charge (a la Brawn) who wields an iron hand and keeps everyone going in the same direction.

I think that Seb can inspire that kind of atmosphere, where Alonso obviously could not.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Somehow I can't see any driver becoming the team principal. One problem that Ferrari had has now gone to wherever aspiring Italian politicians go.

 

[Il_leone]

It is even more chaotic now ... under the Commendatore it may have been chaotic but no one dared to challenge him and overthrow him like they can do now

Alonso could not deliver the title but he got close enough with all the mess to deal with in the background..he did not have someone to deal with the politics for him like Schumacher did with Todt... with Vettel it would be interesting to see who backs his corner... at Ferrari there are many chiefs .. you become friends with one then you have made enemies of the others

even the great Prost could not sort the mess

 

[Mephistopheles]

Are you saying that a driver should know how to sort out the internal politics of a team? Hells bells and there's me thinking they were just there to drive the car....

 

[Bill Boddy]

Did you know that Schumacher did not bother to learn Italian until Barrichello arrived? Once Barrichello started chatting to the mechanics in Italian (not too distant from Portuguese) it suddenly became a must.

 

[Kewee]

A driver doesn't have to know how to sort out a teams internal politics but they definitely need to know how to work within a teams political structure, there's a big difference between the two. That doesn't just apply to a driver at Ferrari.

 

[Il_leone]

Knowing how to deal with the internal politics within any team is to be able to get the team to rally behind you. is important.none more so than Ferrari because of the way the team is run and structured.

It has been already mentioned a lot of drivers are left with damaged careers after their experience at Ferrari - people like Arnoux, Alboreto, Capelli (poor Ivan), Alesi

Ferrari's history is riddled with internal political warfare... if the team is successful this is kept at bay... if the team fails then the knives come out very quickly on who to blame

 

[Andyoak]

You missed out Alonso