Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[RasputinLives]

I meant I wasn't comparing Seb as a driver to Hamilton as a driver but merely saying their entrance into F1 has split individuals to extremes in the same way. I just didn't want to be hit back by anyone on how Hamilton is better because of this or Seb is better because of this debate.

 

[Bushi]

Il_leone you mean this?:

'
'We definitely work a lot together.

The meetings have been quite long this year because we have had a lot of things to sort out after the races.

'We have been constantly making suggestions and comments about what we have on the track to try to help the engineers to transfer that to Maranello (factory) and to translate those comments into ideas for the car.

'It's not a big change compared to the way I used to work with Felipe (Massa) and any other team-mate.

'It's a working relationship to try to help the team all the time.'

You got a gift of reading between the lines, me thinks.

 

[Il_leone]

who was it in the same article said " Massa is not any slower than Raikkonen" and " Vettel's legacy will be questioned when
"It is true that he had an advantage in car performance all these years, so we see how good he is later in his career because, at the moment, he is better than anyone and he is winning all the championships.

"But we saw also Hamilton starting in his first year nearly winning the championship, and in his second year winning the championship. But then he didn't win any more.

"Sometimes you have the car to do it, sometimes not. At the moment Red Bull and Vettel are a very good combination and too good for us.


and I guess Alonso did not say this then

Alonso did not mince his words in the wake of Raikkonen's lacklustre 11th place in Germany last weekend.

After brining his underperforming Ferrari home in a creditable fifth, Alonso moaned: "We have only been able to count on one car again, and we have to improve on that."

 

[Titch]

Who did say it?

 

[Bushi]

The guy that said that he brought an extra 5 tenths to Mclaren.

Explain to me how coming 11th in Germany says he wasn't doing enough to get Ferrari out of the mess they were Il_leone.
Germany the one place I think Kimi never got a good result.

So in your eyes last year proves Vettel is a shitty driver?

 

[Il_leone]

Bushi - We'll find out if he puts away Raikkonen or not and the fact that Horner now saying he considered quitting F1 just because he was getting beat and not adjusting to the regulations is pathetic. Great drivers battle through when the odds are against them to enhance their reputation

The jury is out on Vettel which is not just my opinion

We'll find out if Vettel is going to be a Piquet - domination and reputation based on superior equipment or a Senna able to rally the team around him to achieve success against superior opposition

 

[teabagyokel]

Horner now saying he considered quitting F1 just because he was getting beat and not adjusting to the regulations is pathetic.

You're correct about that. It's not pathetic on Vettel's part though.

 

[Il_leone]

teabagyokel Horner ( Hornet) did like the sound of his own trumpet to let everyone he is part of Red Bull despite making less than 10% contribution

 

[Bushi]

Again you make your own version of that story Il_leone.

 

[Slyboogy]

Again you make your own version of that story Il_leone.

Happens continuously.

 

[FB]

I recently read a interview with Fangio who said that F1 had become a job and that's why he packed it in. Not sure what else Vettel had to prove at and with Red Bull and I suspect his move to Ferrari will have reinvigorated him and given him a new passion for the sport. Bearing in mind this is also the man who said he would happily dive in F1 for free which not many other drivers have said after winning Championships.

 

[Il_leone]

Bushi and you like to live in a state of denial about Vettel's credentials whatever makes you happy.

He should not be classed in the same bracket as Senna - and he has only beaten a couple of nobodies and Mark Webber who thought he was the immovable object so not a lot to shout about and won in Newey designed cars - the same things I've been saying for years

My views on Vettel have not changed that much from the early days when he used to swerve and attempt stupid squeezing other drivers into the pitwall to crashing into them by steering right and disappearing after 1st corner with a clear track

 

[Il_leone]

FB

Drive F1 fo free no such thing. Easier said right when you've become a 4 x WDC and easy to say when you don't get the opportunities to become world champion either just to land yourself in the best car

 

[cider_and_toast]

FB, that's the sort of thing I was speculating about earlier. I was wondering if Seb had made the decision to leave RBR as far back as the end of 2013 and the 2014 season acted to confrim that as apposed to the Horner lead speculation that he wrapped the towel in as a result of one poor season.

Maybe after 4 years of winning he thought to himself, time to try something new.

 

[RasputinLives]

Senna threaterned to quit F1 when he couldn't land a Williams drive. Prost did quit F1 because he didn't want Senna as a team mate. Lauda and Kimi quit F1 because they were bored with it. Hamilton threaterned to quit F1 because people thought he was a cheat.

Vettel hasn't actually threaterned to quit F1 at all but someone says he did so he's pathetic.

Hmm. I think people use information to back up their argument rather than form an argument from hearing information.

 

[Il_leone]

cider_and_toast FB

This did apply to Vettel's idol Schumacher because he had the team built for him at Benetton and started a bidding war of £16m between the leading 4 teams and chose Ferrari even though it was thought to be his decision motivated by money at the time. His reasons were he needed a new challenge. No doubt he could have won a few more titles with Benetton than wait 5 years for his next one

 

[Il_leone]

RasputinLives i do find Horner's turncoat image amusing from the days he use to hear his stupid voice on the radio " Fantastic Seb... I could kiss you " to kicking him between the balls now that he has left Red Bull... Vettel has not come out to deny he did not say these things either

Kimi quit F1 because he priced himself out despite what he was already paid ..Lauda - 1st time - you can understand given the experiences he went through at Ferrari to where he ended up , Lauda 2nd time - he knew he just could not fight Prost anymore


Senna - he could make those demands because he was still the best driver above the rest that time and really he did not want another year of trying to make up 1.5 - 2 seconds deficit against a superior car at his stage...I think he saw Schumacher as a potential threat to his supremacy even though Prost was on the slide

Prost - it was cowardice what he did signing 2 year contract but quitting when he realised Senna was his teammate and then trying to join Mclaren

 

[siffert_fan]

Il_leone

He shouldn't be classed in the same bracket as Senna? The same Senna who rammed his own teammate into the wall to take the title? I would agree, as Seb never resorted to such crap.

As for the Newey is God hogwash that keeps getting trotted out, Schumacher won all of his titles in non-Newey cars and, in fact, had to beat Newey designs to gain those titles. So much for the unbeatable advantage conferred upon a driver by being in a Newey car.

As for dominant cars, I have been following F1 for over 50 years and the two most dominant cars I have ever seen were the 1992 Williams and last year's Merc. I guess that makes the talents of Mansell and Hamilton severely open to question, doesn't it?

 

[Il_leone]

Schumacher's 2002 and 2004 Ferrari's would be classed in the same bracket and Vettel's 2011 and 2013 Red Bulls thrashing the opposition by more than 30 seconds

 

[Il_leone]

siffert_fan At least Hamilton had to fight his teammate to earn his