Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Il_leone]

siffert_fan Vettel never rams his teammate off - really or any other driver ???

 

[RasputinLives]

Il_leone I see you've managed to make exuses for all the drivers you like whilst not for the ones you don't.

 

[Il_leone]

RasputinLives like ???

Hamilton - when you do soemthing you love and suddenly people take simple things out of context and turn it against you then it makes you wonder why you should continue doing it
- it happens in everyday workplace when your supposedly colleagues and peers back stabs you. If you are referring to liegate than if I was in Hamilton's shoes I would have felt I 'd been stitched because I placed my trust in someone professionally who appears to have gotten scot free because they are not in the limelight



Mansell - just learnt a few things from Prost and Piquet really
-----------------------------

Are any of the excuses lies then for Senna, Lauda or Raikkonen ?

I've not a fan of Webber nor was I Senna's greatest fan - I did not like the guy back then because I did not appreciate his abilities

Kimi - he's lost some credibility with how his career has fallen and appears only money motivated

Alonso _ I lost a lot of respect for him after 2007 and at least he has regained some credibility with what he has managed to do with Ferrari against superior opposition the past 5 years

If Vettel manages to turn Ferrari around and Red Bull sink like a stone then Seb will be respected ... I always compare Vettel with Damon Hill 's situation - if he wins its the car , if he loses its him

 

[RasputinLives]

You basically said Senna was allowed to threatern to leave F1 when he was in a car off the pace because he was the best. Thats an opinion not a reason.

Basically your saying Senna was allowed to do it because you thought he was the best. Seb is not allowed to do it because you don't think he Is the best. So basically your making judgement on your own preferences or as I said before using certain media tittle tattle to back up one opinion as fact but ignoring another piece as it doesn't fit in with your stance.

You can either have all champions who threatern to quit as pathetic or none of them. You can't pick and chose.

I will remind you by the way that all the others have actually said it but Seb's quit threat has only been reported by a third party.

 

[Il_leone]

RasputinLives Senna was the undisputed best and fastest was he not back in the 90's ? Any team desperate for glory would seek him out if they could afford him ( and make his own team work harder). He offered himself for free at Williams but apparently he wanted $30m from Ferrari if they want to sign him to ward them off. He could threaten to quit knowing that efforts would be made to keep him in F1.

Alonso could not use the same hard stance because simply he does not have that position to say he was streets ahead of everyone

Seb quitting would be seen like a serious fall from grace after 4 years of domination because the feeling is Alonso is the best driver in the paddock and there is nothing to dispute that if you compare by stats only

That is why I amuse that is coming from Christian Hornet who is now starting to really kick Vettel down

 

[cider_and_toast]

Hey, you leave Damon out of this !!

I seem to recall that it was very clear to everyone at the back end of 95 that Schui wanted to rebuild Ferrari and that he knew it would take time to do it.

Mansell wanted to throw the towel in every five minutes.

 

[Il_leone]

cider_and_toast I have the utmost respect for Damon ..unfortunately the press called him weak, feeble and not good enough when Schumacher kept beating him which Schumacher himself used to play mind games... I am glad he shut a lot of people up seeing how Williams and JV made a real mess of things in 97 and how both Jordan and Arrows fell

Mansell should have at least defended his title..although 1990 he felt his chance had gone

 

[teabagyokel]

Vettel didn't have a great year last year. There's still moments of greatness - Suzuka was an understandably overlooked champion's performance.

As for 2002/04 comparisons, Barrichello finished 2nd in each season. Webber was at least at the same kind of level as Rubinho. He never finished 2nd in the championship.

He makes a good car look better because he rarely errs when in a confident position. Which is why McLaren could not capitalise on their near-parity in 2011, why he put together the only truly consistent run in 2012, and why he rewrote the record books in 2013 - upstaging Schumacher, Mansell and anyone since Ascari.

Look at 2010 as well, he lost 3 dominant wins and still beat Webber. Look at 2009, when he picked off a Brawn. Look at 2008, when he took Faenza to heights seen neither before or since, even ignoring Monza. And I don't think we should ignore Monza.

But the problem is he doesn't fit the G.O.A.T. mould. He isn't exciting, enigmatic, complicated, and tragic. Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are each of the first three, Senna and Villeneuve are all four. He's not calculating, cold and successful like Piquet, Lauda, Prost or Schumacher either.

No, Vettel is fast, hardworking and slightly annoying. More a cheeky kid than a gladiator, street-fighter or hero. He, and probably Button too, don't fit that trope and will be underestimated because of it.

No-one else would have made that Red Bull look quite as good. Hamilton would have found a crisis, Alonso would have qualified less well.

Yes, it was the car, it always is. But the driver those cars needed was Sebastian Vettel. Qualify it almost perfectly, lead off from the front, cruise home. Too often to be a coincidence, too well to be a fluke.

He's a great driver. That's what I'm talking about.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Outstanding post sir!!

 

[siffert_fan]

siffert_fan At least Hamilton had to fight his teammate to earn his

At least until the post-Spa "clear the air" meeting, after which Nico's performances fell off greatly.

As far as anyone here KNOWS, the substance of that meeting may have been: "Nico, we are paying Hamilton a lot more than we are paying you. Hamilton is faster than you. Do you understand?".

 

[siffert_fan]

siffert_fan Vettel never rams his teammate off - really or any other driver ???

I assume you are referring to Seb's collision with Weber. And what did Weber have to say about how Hamilton's erratic behavior led to the collision?

 

[Il_leone]

siffert_fan Turkey 2010 springs to mind

What about his attempted wall squeeze at the start of Silverstone 2010 on Webber? and he tried to do it to Alonso at the next race only to be nearly crunched in two in a Ferrari club sandwich and causing a concertina behind him

 

[RasputinLives]

The thing with picking out single incidents like that is the fact you are picking a single incidents at your preference to once again prove your point.

Name me a driver and I can pick you an incident that makes them look bad.

 

[Il_leone]

RasputinLives

the responsder specifically said Vettel does not take out his team mates like Senna did so all I did was gave him a counter response to that argument and he seems to have forgotten Turkey 2010 somehow

With regards to naming a driver with an incident that makes them look bad ..which driver did I state was perfect then?

I was not alive to watch Fangio or JYS but I am sure they've had one or two moments that makes them look bad with Vettel because its recent its more memorable

 

[siffert_fan]

Il_leone

If you will look at the Turkey crash, you will see it was plainly an ACCIDENT, which Senna ramming Prost most definitely was NOT!

If you are trying to equate the two, then your understanding of the sport is rather different from mine.

 

[soccerman17]

Love where this thread has gone

 

[TomysF1]

It's interesting how conflicting emotions Sebastian causes. It's always down to individual personality and sympathy rather than true performance.

 

[Titch]

I think that Rosberg might go for, accidentally on purpose, ram raids. But Vettel, I think, does not. He might get frustrated and become erratic, but that's not the same thing at all.

 

[FB]

Interesting to read the thoughts of Helmut Marko on how Vettel is settling in at Ferrari.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-back-to-naughty-old-self-marko

 

[Bushi]

Bushi and you like to live in a state of denial about Vettel's credentials whatever makes you happy.

Riiiight......