Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[RasputinLives]

Well yes. Mastering a car better than everyone else makes you a talented driver though right?

F1 has different eras and different devices all the time. Some of the suit drivers and some don't. But surely being the best at a certain era makes you a great driver right?

I actually meant no one had really talked about him breaking track limits all the time previously. I've obviously read the EBD thing.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Well yes. Mastering a car better than your team mate makes you a talented driver though right?.

Only one team had the Red Bull car.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

He wasn't looking for time off track. He was trying to make desperate passes off track. That was on two occasions. Vettel was likely four wheels off the circuit over 80 times in the course of the race. I already addressed the Alonso bit earlier but you ignored it because you much prefer to engage in battle with anyone who remotely criticises Vettel.

 

[RasputinLives]

If thats how you want to see it ExtremeNinja then thats fine by me.

Like I've said previously - I'm not even a Vettel fan - I'm just very tired of people looking for excuses to point out why a driver is really not very good despite winning so much.

He's not immune from criticism from me at all I just can't stand people grabbing on to things as fact just to try and prove some 5 year old theory of theres is correct.

Is he the greatest driver that ever lived? Probably not. Is he a deserved 4 time world champion? Yes. Do I think he had a good race yesterday and a decent season so far? Yes I do.

Now. I thought you were leaving me too it?

 

[FB]

Unlikely any of you are going to believe Christian Horner but here are his comments on Vettel's race in Belgium.

"Sebastian, after a great start, was racing with Bottas, we didn't want to get undercut so we pitted quite aggressively with him to make sure we stayed ahead of him but thereafter we seemed to struggle with pace, so whether there's some damage with the car or not we really need to look into, but it wasn't Sebastian's fault today."

 

[Josh]

I think he drove a very good race considering the fact he was forced to miss an entire practice session.

I also think it's stupid to dismiss a driver after 1 bad season, especially when he's had some great seasons before that. Quite frankly I think there's a lot of confirmation bias involved because I'm pretty damn sure people weren't so quick to dismiss another driver after he had a terrible season a while back. I would've expected Vettel to be better this year than he has been so far but he's not been as bad as some people are saying he's been. He's had the most mechanical issues compared to Ricciardo which is something people seem to conveniently forget when they're discussing his season.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

And there is the problem. If you can't take anyone's criticism of Vettel at face value then you put yourself in a position where everyone else has an agenda. The result of that is that your arguments are tainted by your opinions of the posters motives and so all reasonable discussion goes out the window and your defence of Vettel descends into the appearance of fanaticism and narcissism. I don't know why I bite. I should simply make my point and ignore your tainted repost.

 

[RasputinLives]

But ExtremeNinja you've accused me of defending Vettel no matter what. So basically you think I'm posting with an agenda so your views are just as tainted.

As you've told everyone that will listen that you've always known Vettel is not a talented driver and as you've been saying this for the last 5 years constantly is it any wonder we have come to the conclusion that you have an agenda?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Thank you for re enforcing my point. I will not engage further.

 

[Il_leone]

People talking about Vettel taking wide lines or off track limits I can point to 3 instances where it has cost him

- Hockenheim 2012 - he passed Button on the outside with all 4 wheels off the track which somehow he was ignorant to and got demoted to 5th by time penalty but the whole race he was very ragged running off line and throwing up dust in his desperate pursuit of Alonso and Button

- Hungary 2014 - chased by Hamilton coming out of the last corner he gets his wheels wide onto the painted surface at the last corner and that sends him into a spin and into the wall luck for him he can continue

- Spa 2014 - the lap Ricciardo passed him was because he ran wide again off the track and had to back off and let Daniel through

all three instances come through when Vettel is under real pressure and makes amateurish errors

yes he has having to overcompensate his driving style without the EBD coupled with appearing to throw the car around more in the corners so its no surprise he is wearing out his tyres faster than Ricciardo

 

[RasputinLives]

Thank you for re enforcing my point. I will not engage further.

Ever? Promise?

I think we'd have a far more reasonable debate.

 

[RasputinLives]

My honest is that Vettel is not actually performing badly at all. In fact he's had some great drives with yesterday being one of them. Its just that Ricciardo is having an amazing season.

We saw Alonso get beat by a new young team mate and then bounce back so maybe we can see Vettel do the same.

 

[teabagyokel]

I remember the 2010 Belgian Grand Prix. Vettel was the crash kid, his Australian team-mate beating him quite convincingly in the championship. How did his demise go that time?

 

[FB]

You are forgetting teabagyokel that if he wins another race it will only be because of the car.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Way off topic but it's time this thread took an educational break.

If I said the sky was blue you would tell me that I was wrong and that it was a certain type of blue and that you knew this better than most because you've seen the sky every day of your life whilst talking to all you colour analysis friends.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Well we all know that the sky is black.

 

[KekeTheKing]

During the Belgian Grand Prix, Brundle referred to Vettel as the "Red Bull rear-gunner". And as I noted in the GP discussion thread, it was his driving and defense that forced Rosberg into a fight and eventual lockup that cost him the race. If Mercedes does completely implode, Ricciardo will need Seb to continue fending off attacks from behind if there is any title hope.

 

[Bill Boddy]

The only problem for Vettel is that unless the two Mercedes drivers have another red mist is that he will not get into a position to help anyone.

 

[RasputinLives]

Vettel was in the middle of the Mercs at Spa before any of the red mist kicked in so wouldn't be surprised to see him as a bottle stop in front of one of them for a bit at future races. Not the whole race but he and Danny Ric along with Bottas and Alonso are certainly going to be factors in the Rosberg/Hamilton fight.

 

[teabagyokel]

We saw in Malaysia that if one of them gets behind another car for too long, then the other will bolt.