Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Bill Boddy]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how, with all the checking and rebuilding that goes on, how a chassis could be damaged for four races without it being spotted.

 

[The Pits]

I am not sure that the Chassis are sent back to the factory for a thorough check for the flyaway races, so there would be limited scope for checking for internal damage, now everything is back in Blighty, they can have a good old rummage, including getting the old x-ray machine out for an in depth check.

 

[FB]

I heard Daniel Ricciardo was seen absconding from Seb's side of the garage with a lump hammer and a screw driver.

 

[RasputinLives]

4 world titles and its not clear how good he is?

Ok. Gonna check out this silly conversation now.

(Also Alonso went head to head with one not-then-world champion driver......in his rookie year......and lost)

 

[no-FIAt-please]

Vettel - 4 world titles. Alonso - Lost to a rookie. Statements made out of context.

If Rosberg beat Webber in this years Mercedes' and picked up 4 world titles on the spin would that make him the best or even amongst the best of the grid? No, and at this moment it still isn't exactly clear just how good Vettel is, if results were everything then Bianchi would no longer have a seat in F1. As for the rookie comment, Hamilton was a rookie but had lots of testing experience, he isn't exactly your normal rookie in that he has gone on to win the WDC, many people consider it to be his best F1 season and the margin of Alonso's loss was very small. I'm not an Alonso fan or anything, I just don't see the point in leaving things out of context.

I didn't realise I was being so silly, I'll just refrain from commenting in future.

 

[FB]

I wonder if Vettel will look back on his career once he's retired and think "if only I'd had a shit car between 2010 and 2013 then I wouldn't have won all those stupid titles". Ditto Button, Mansell, Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, Raikkonen etc, etc.

 

[Titch]

No.

 

[RasputinLives]

Fangio would still be Fangio even if his team mate had been Sakon Yamamoto for his entire career.

You can only beat whats put in front of you and when you do it 4 times in a row I pretty much think you should be recognised as pretty good.

Also lets remember that Sebastian Vettel is the only current driver on the grid to have been in a direct title fight with his team mate and come out as champion.

 

[Olivier]

... but we can't deny Vettel's stocks have gone down a little bit this year. Are we not surprised by his struggling this year? Or it's just that Riccardo has stepped up to the challenge and is making Vettel look bad?

 

[sushifiesta]

4 races is not enough to overthrow the reputation he's built by winning the last 4 championships.

 

[Bushi]

4 races is more than enough for some.

 

[Incubus]

At this rate drivers of whatever previous achievements will be deemed hopeless after an average showing on a free practice session.

 

[Greenlantern101]

Not including this year as it isn't over yet, the only thing you can really say is he is better than the team mates he has had.
He has beaten (on points) Heidfeld, Liuzzi, Bourdais and Webber. None of which I would put in any top 10. Plus he has had the best car for all 4 of his championships. But thats hardly unusual for a championship winner.

The jury is still out for me. He may be the best driver F1 has ever seen but until he is beating a top rated team mate, I will continue to have doubts.

And before someone bites my head off I did rate him as the best driver last year. I am just saying I have my doubts.

 

[RasputinLives]

Its all just stats though isn't it?

You could say that Vettel is the only driver to win multiple champiinships whilst going up against 4 other world champions and therefore he's the greatest we've ever seen.

Rosberg beat 7 times world champion Michael Schmacher 3 years in a row as a team mate so does that make him the best driver in the field?

Add to which 'best car for 4 years' is not only not true (lets rewind 12 months) but also subjective. So I think this 'he has to prove it' he has proved it' is again purely subjective on whether you like him or you don't.

You can only beat what is put in front of you. I know that less than 6 months ago I saw Sebastian Vettel not just beat what was put in front of him but absolutely demolish what was put in front of him. So he doesn't have to prove anything to me.

Despite what Alonso says it really doesn't matter what happens in Sebs career from now on. He'll be remembered as one of the greats.

Alonso should really worry about his own legacy. Right not the 'Alonso Movie' ends with him falling out with Mclaren in 2007 and a fade to black saying 'Alonso never reached the same heights again'

 

[Greenlantern101]

You could say that Vettel is the only driver to win multiple champiinships whilst going up against 4 other world champions and therefore he's the greatest we've ever seen.'

That would be the case if all 4 champions had equal cars.

Rosberg beat 7 times world champion Michael Schmacher 3 years in a row as a team mate so does that make him the best driver in the field?

That assumes Schumacher was the 2nd best driver. I'm sure the other 4 WDC would disagree.

Add to which 'best car for 4 years' is not only not true

Well they won the Constructors how else would you define it.

 

[RasputinLives]

Ahhh so its not about team mates then? Its about who else is in the field?

Also if winning the constructors is the definition of the best car then why is the drivers title not the definition of who is the best driver?

Like I said. Its all subjective. Welcome to circular argumentville - population = us.

The team mate thing does prove stuff but it also falls down. For example is Rosberg really better than Schumacher? Was Hill as good as Prost? Was Petrov better than Heidfeld? Jackie Stewart is still Jackie Stewart even if he's up against Bruno Senna.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I'm with you on this one ,Greenlantern101 . Circular arguments normally happen when one refuses to accept the validity of another's opinion which differs to their own. Mine incidentally, Greenlantern101, is the same as yours but I appreciate why others would be be totally convinced of Vettel's greatness. The stats tell a story of sheer dominance, but i think the story behind the stats tells us something different. I, like you, have my doubts - and not because I don't like him. I actually find him to be quite a nice guy and one of the ones I'd most like to have a drink with. I'm just not convinced of his talent against some other driver's that seem to be more naturally talented and more of a full package. The obvious candidates are Alonso and Hamilton, but I would also rate Hulkenberg and a couple of other current drivers above Vettel based on the evidence as I see it and as I interpret it. That is how I see things right now, but I am open to being convinced and that convincing will need to come from what I observe from Vettel himself.

 

[RasputinLives]

My comment on the circular argument is not because I refuse to except someone else may be correct on this one but just the fact that there is no actual answer and there will never be one.

The team mate argument that is often put out is subjective and not something you can use as a bench mark for all drivers. Its not Vettels fault his team mates have all been crap the same way its not Grosjeans fault that until now he's been driving against world champions his whole career.

I'm convinced. But then I was convinced back in 2009. I see why others aren't but I still think it comes down to how much you like a driver with that sometimes. No one likes a dominant winner (unless its Rossi) and every dominant winner has always had a large number of fans saying they doubt their talent. Its the nature of sports. Doesn't mean they are wrong - just the nature of things.

My original comments were made after the 'we will see' quotes by Alonso. He was basically stirring the pot with a massive wooden spoon very deliberetly.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

It does not come down to how much I like the driver. Please take this statement as fact. I represent myself on this matter.

 

[RasputinLives]

I wasn't saying you. I'm just saying its a common factor.