Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Plutus]

With so many rule changes all of the teams are pushing the new rules to the limit. I do not think they are cheating but they are pushing the limits. FIA is watching and so are the other teams.

What else, other than cheating is it, if you knowingly and willing or willing push and with knowledge of taking the risk of crossing the limit, cross the limit of the regulations?

 

[siffert_fan]

Plutus

That line of reasoning says that the Brabham BT46B should never have been created. It pushed legality right to the ragged edge, and is the kind of creativity F1 so desperately needs IMO

 

[Hamberg]

Isn't there a difference between pushing legality to the edge and hurling yourself right over it?

 

[Plutus]

siffert_fan
No, that is not true because it was only deemed illegal subsequently. At the time it raced it was not illegal.

 

[RasputinLives]

What else, other than cheating is it, if you knowingly and willing or willing push and with knowledge of taking the risk of crossing the limit, cross the limit of the regulations?

It makes you an F1 team.

F1 teams attitude. Its only cheating if you get caught or if someone is doing it better than you.

 

[Galahad]

There are dozens of examples in F1 history of cars and practices that were within the letter of the regulations but not the spirit of them. Some of these were subsequently declared illegal but usually only after the regulations were twisted to fit (e.g. Tyrrell ball bearings "unsecured ballast", Renault mass damper a "moveable aerodynamic device"). Other teams always cry foul but only because they didn't think of it first.

Funnily enough, the BT46B is one that was legal both in spirit and letter. It was withdrawn by Bernie voluntarily after winning its only race, never declared illegal by the governing body or stewards.

 

[FB]

I think the rational behind Bernie withdrawing the fan car was that everyone else would have to copy it. I think the same argument was used to get the Lotus 88 banned although Colin Chapman wasn't as helpful as Bernie.

Back on topic, assuming Red Bull get Vettel's mechanical gremlins sorted for Malaysia I think we could see a more serious challenge to the Mercedes duo.

 

[Galahad]

Yes, if you assume that Vettel is a bit quicker than Ricciardo (which you don't have to, but it's my working assumption at this stage) then Mercedes might almost have someone to worry about. Particularly at Sepang where downforce is a bigger influence on lap time than Melbourne.

 

[siffert_fan]

The only reason the BT46B was legal was the rule that stated any fan or fan-like item was only legal if it was required for cooling. The rules didn't impose any size limit, and the fan on the 46B was roughly 3 times as big as was required by the cooling needs. The car was withdrawn because the rules were going to be re-written. Otherwise, as was pointed out at the time, you could fit a fan from a Rolls-Royce turbine to cool an oil cooler!

Even so, as I said, the car was pushing the raqged edge of legality as Murray didn't have it vetted prior to its race appearance. It seems to me that, since F1 has clearly lost the spirit embodied in the BT46B, it is becoming ever closer to being a "spec" series and is a LONG way from being the "pinnacle of motor racing" as it claims to be (not that that was ever the case in fact).

 

[Olivier]

Galahad, Interesting topic! Another example of a legal car that didn't comply with the spirit of the regulation was the Brabham BT49 and its hydroneumatic suspension. FIA had changed the regulation regarding "skirts" and Brabham found a loophole that allowed them to lower the car during the race while elevating it when it was checked after the race.

 

[Blog Zbod]

Vettel has been called to the headmaster's office for public use of ...colourful ...language. Todt already has sent him "a letter of rebuke" for calling the new engine's sound "crap." Or to that effect. Now he's demanding a public audience so he can box his ears.

 

[FB]

Seb looking like he's having a Schumacher like 2005 season. Somehow I don't think we will only see 6 cars starting at the US GP though.

 

[teabagyokel]

FB - If Red Bull win their appeal, it'd probably be 4 at the Chinese Grand Prix.

 

[RasputinLives]

Whilst FOM delight in playing the radio footage where Seb is arguing with his team they failed to play in the conversation at the end of the race that went as follows (I'm paraphrasing):

PW: Well done Seb not the best I know
SV: Not my best Sunday afternoon boys but fantastic pit stops.
PW: We know its not the best at the moment.
SV: We'll get there.

Not the petulant child FOM footage has been trying to present in the first 4 races. There was selective editing with Hamilton last year as well. I guess it makes for better entertainment.

 

[teabagyokel]

I'm convinced they've got Button saying "I've got no grip, guys" from 2007ish and keep splicing the same audio in.

 

[Fenderman]

It's one of the techniques that intelligence agencies use to keep their "activists" fed with one liners and misinformation with which to troll and vilify, whilst interrupting and deflecting any genuine and respectful dialogue and debate.

 

[Bushi]

Red bull are investigating Vettel's chassis.

Think he had something wrong with it in the past, in 2010 i think. Grosjean had something similar last year, where there was something wrong with his chassis, since it was the first one. After that he was matching Kimi's pace quiet well and even surpassing him at the end of the season.

 

[Bill Boddy]

If I were to write that Vettel might be slower than Ricciardo because his chassis may be damaged then that would be an excuse. If the chassis is proved to be damaged then it becomes a reason.

 

[Hamberg]

If that was the case, last year they would have given him Webber's chassis. Can't see that happening this year.

 

[Jen]

Surely a chassis is checked over at least once a race weekend, so that sounds like a load of bollocks - unless, RBR are looking for 'tweaks' to enhance Seb's performance.