Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Lewywo4]

But I can say that what I see In Red Bull is the car driven by Vettel is streets ahead of the one driven by Webber. I expect a whole bunch of you will now say that's because the team have fixed it that way,.... who knows you may be right..

I hardly believe that Red Bull hasn't given both Sebastian and Mark the same cars, during a race weekend. It's obvious that Sebastian is able to extract more from the RB9, than what Mark is able to accomplish. Vettel has been able to extract with more greater effect, Newey's use of exhaust gases for aerodynamic purposes, which has enabled Sebastian to get on the throttle earlier, and more effectively than Mark.

 

[teabagyokel]

As good as Vettel is and as much as he has achieved we still need to him in the position Alonso and Hamilton have had in recent years, good cars but ultimately they have to produce a real stand out performance to win (barring the 2012 McLaren).

2008 Italian Grand Prix, Toro Rosso WCC P6, won from pole in the wet.
2009 Chinese Grand Prix, Red Bull - win in 3rd race of run of 7 in which Button/Brawn won 6. Wet.
2012 Bahrain Grand Prix, first of only 3* RBR wins by Monza. Dry.

*Admittedly Webber won two, but tell me Vettel wouldn't have won at Valencia given a finish...
And he can win at more than Barcelona, Monaco, Silverstone, Nurburgring and Interlagos, which helps.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Bored now.

I think that, while this is the Vettel thread, he's taking up too much of the content of the posts.

Can we talk about something else now.

Booo Booo Booo !!!!

 

[Bill Boddy]

I don't see how Vettel being so far ahead of Webber makes him a top designer as you seem to imply Titch.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

2008 Italian Grand Prix, Toro Rosso WCC P6, won from pole in the wet.
2009 Chinese Grand Prix, Red Bull - win in 3rd race of run of 7 in which Button/Brawn won 6. Wet.
2012 Bahrain Grand Prix, first of only 3* RBR wins by Monza. Dry.
*Admittedly Webber won two, but tell me Vettel wouldn't have won at Valencia given a finish...
And he can win at more than Barcelona, Monaco, Silverstone, Nurburgring and Interlagos, which helps.

Bourdais put the car in 4th, clearly it was performing well above par that weekend. It was P6 in the constructors that season, but it was night and day in terms of performance, with most of TR's points being scored in the second half of the season.

2009 China. Webber finished 2nd, next non-RB5 was 45 seconds down the road. Button was on a streak, but only when the races were dry. RBR had the package that weekend, unless Webber also bossed it.

2012 Bahrain was a very good performance in a car much closer to the field than often is otherwise the case. Although I will note that the Red Bull was the highest qualifying car.

 

[Bushi]

no-FIAt-please : Bourdais ended 18th in that race, just saying.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

That's why he doesn't drive in F1 anymore, because he wasn't particularly suited to it.

While I'm sure Vettel drove excellently that day, it was hardly in a sub-par car. Anyone notice how Webber also qualified 3rd in the (Newey designed, shared by RBR and TR) same chassis with a less powerful engine?

 

[no-FIAt-please]

Although I will say that even if the TR was a good car, it is still Vettel's best win. He deserves credit for keeping calm, and most importantly seizing his opportunity while his rivals (Hamilton & Ferrari) faltered. That is the aspect that I find most impressive about that weekend. A truly noteworthy win.

 

[teabagyokel]

no-FIAt-please - You asked for a time when Vettel was in good cars, but required a standout performance to win. Monza 2008 is that!

 

[RasputinLives]

The Toro Rosso was a good car in the wet hence Vettel and Bourdais being so high up. It was really not that good in the dry hence Bourdais 18th finish.

One thing that people don't factor in that day is how quickly Hamilton cut through the pack that day and how most drivers would have paniced. But Vettel just kept cool and paced the field like he's been doing ever since.

That win should not be under estimated.

 

[Titch]

I don't see how Vettel being so far ahead of Webber makes him a top designer as you seem to imply Titch.

Oh BB I am not signing Vettel up as a top designer. ( Sigh) He is a Brilliant driver ( I'm not a fan). I'm saying that as an intuitive, world class driver, (can you do better), he may ( probably) have an input on car handling.
Even I as a mere female know when the car I am driving is good, or not. So all I am trying to say is that , he, as a brilliant driver, must have an input into the car he is driving!

 

[Bill Boddy]

Titch what do you mean by a "mere female"? I am sure that you are a perfectly competent person who is capable of making judgements on cars. Just don't let men hear you do it.

 

[Titch]

 

[MCLS]

One thing that people don't factor in that day is how quickly Hamilton cut through the pack that day and how most drivers would have paniced. But Vettel just kept cool and paced the field like he's been doing ever since.

Would he have panicked if Hamilton hadn't been taken out of the equation by a pit stop gambling on rain that never came? He only was charging down Vettel for about 2 laps until he had pit, would he have been able to have stayed cool and pace the field if he had Hamilton for company for an extended period, well we'll never know, but the result might have been different

 

[RasputinLives]

Maybe. But thats the whole issue with Seb not getting credit. He does what he has to do and puts in top notch performances but because his closest rivals conspire to mess up their own chances and aren't crawling all over the back of him he never gets the credit for an awesome race.

F1 is a funny sport where you get less praise for winning by a country mile than you do by a couple of seconds. By the same standard Kimi gets praise for charging through from 13th on the grid but it was his own poor performance that put him their in the first place. Odd sport sometimes.

If you're looking for a good Seb race only a few grand prix ago he spent the whole race fending off two much faster Enstone cars.

 

[KekeTheKing]

The Toro Rosso was a good car in the wet hence Vettel and Bourdais being so high up. It was really not that good in the dry hence Bourdais 18th finish.

Bourdais' Toro Rosso stalled on the grid and he was pushed into the pits where he finally started a full lap behind the SC led field. He was on for a good result that day, but I can't imagine a scenario where he wins that GP though.

The TR was really on song for a couple races in 08. In the previous race at Spa, Bourdais was the fastest car in Q1 and beat his teammate in Q3 to start P9 and finish P7.

One thing that people don't factor in that day is how quickly Hamilton cut through the pack that day and how most drivers would have paniced. But Vettel just kept cool and paced the field like he's been doing ever since.

As often happens in F1, it mainly came down to weather and timing. Lewis had just caught up to Seb before pitting for the first time and was then fueled for the remainder of the race. If the rain had kept falling, they would have been on equal terms to the flag, but Hamilton was forced into an additional stop with 17 laps left as we know.

This is the graphic that was shown right before Hamilton pit.

Not that any of this matters when we're talking about the soon to be 4x Champ. There's no doubt he's an all time great.

 

[cider_and_toast]

RasputinLives, I see your point regarding the way people view the sport but at the end of the day, it's entertainment and someone winning by a country mile every week is boring. No two ways about it. Yes, Vettel in conjunction with the Red Bull team, is doing a fantastic job and yes he is one of the all time greats but for people who aren't Vettel fans, this fact can be acknowledged while at the same time it's perfectly normal to say it's also dull.

Just imagine if your favorite football team won every match 10-0 and won the title four years running. The people who weren't fans of your team would soon get fed up with it and even those who were fans would eventually get bored and hope that someone could step up and challenge them.

And calling a winning team dull isn't just restricted to F1, back in the late 80's early 90's Arsenal were quite an effective team who won various trophies while at the same time known to the rest of the football community as "Boring, Boring Arsenal" because of the way they played.

Watching a driver carve through the field regardless of how he ended up at the back is always going to be far more intersting than watching one gallop off into the sunset, no matter how fantastically he takes every corner.

The Schumacher / Scuderia years have left a lasting legacy on the sport in many areas but one of the biggest is the extreme dislike of the never ending dominance of a single driver and team.

 

[Road of Bones]

cider_and_toast - I could not have put it better myself. There is a distinct gulf in enjoyment between the thrill of a comeback drive, or a tussle for the lead, and merely appreciating one team/driver outclassing everyone else.

Perhaps the FIA should just bar Vettel from particpating in Q3 for the rest of the season? It might make for a more interesting run-in to his frankly inevitable 4th title...

 

[RasputinLives]

I still think the blame in the dullness is with Vettels rivals who just can't keep their act together. I think we have drivers and packages capable of giving Vettel a run for his money (and us entertainment) if they could find the consistancy that Vettel and Red Bull have.

Too many cock ups from his rivals means Seb has it easy.

 

[MCLS]

If it wasn't for Brawn's gold striking at the start of 2009, the rule changes made after 2008 would have led to complete domination by Red Bull and Vettel would be on for his 5th straight title!