Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[teabagyokel]

Brogan - How about a thread called "By what margin does Sebastian Vettel kick Mark Webber's whinging Australian arse, and what does this mean about Vettel's place in the pecking order?"

Bit long, I know.

 

[Jen]

No news on that Mark Webber extension but he is being nice and well behaved at mo though so maybe Seb....I mean Red Bull will GIVE him one.

More accurate?

 

[Mephistopheles]

Webber's a very nice boy....

 

[LifeW12]

Just wanted to make the point that I want to see Vettel in a bad car and see how he goes. Driving the best car every race proves absolutely nothing.

 

[RasputinLives]

He did drive a Toro Rosso for a year

(can open. Worms everywhere)

 

[RasputinLives]

Also your original point suggests you think the Toro Rosso was a better car in 2008 than the Ferrari was in 2012.

 

[teabagyokel]

That 2008 Monza race wasn't against far superior cars, he just had the track position imho. It was pretty much a Red Bull car with some different stickers and a different engine.

You've ignored one key point there. Red Bull were not, at the time, a front-running team. They were a midfield team - they finished 7th in the Constructors' Championship. And, if it was a Red Bull with a different engine...

So, in what you're saying was ostensibly the same car, he still outscored Webber even if you don't count Monza. He still beat the only man we can be actually sure had the same car by scoring 8.75 points for every point Bourdais scored.

And don't forget who has scored 80% of all Toro Rosso top 6 finishes:

I'm sorry, but all the stuff about Vettel being a beneficiary of an awesome Toro Rosso in 2008 just doesn't stand up.

 

[sushifiesta]

Both Toro Rosso's qualified in the top 10 for 6 out of the last 7 races of 2008 so it was probably the best Toro Rosso there has ever been. This year the Toro Rosso is better than it has been for a long time but they've only had both car in the top 10 in qualifying once out of the first 7 races so far. Monza 2008 was a wet race which we know can give a helping hand to drivers who wouldn't otherwise be near the top, like Bottas in qualifying last weekend, as well. However, there's no denying Vettel is a special driver, he's won three WDCs and now you'd have to make him favourite to win four in a row.

The only question is how he compares to Alonso and Hamilton. we saw the sparks that flew in 2007 when those two were together as team mates but circumstances have meant we've never really seen prolonged battles with Vettel and Alonso/Hamilton.

 

[RasputinLives]

Toro Rosso also had the best driver line up they've ever had in 2008 too (yes I am refering to multi Indy car champion Sebastian Bourdais) which may have a reflection on those quali results your talking about.

 

[Blog Zbod]

From Gary Anderson's mid-term report

Fangio is conspicuous in his absence from this list but of all those listed (nine total WDC-winners), to include his major contemporary rivals, only Jimmy Clark has a higher career-long win percentage than Vettel:



"Anyone who thinks he [Vettel] is not the real deal and only successful because he has the best car is missing the point. Vettel is part of a big team of people and his feedback has allowed Newey to focus on the development direction required to continually move forward. What impresses me most is that Vettel seems to come back each year mentally stronger than the previous season."

 

[KekeTheKing]

Although my opinion of Seb's driving has increased with every Championship, there will always be question marks until he takes on a top-tier teammate. So while the titles and statistical accolades continue to mount, beating Webber over and over is not doing anything for Vettel's position in the echelon of Champions. Not that it's his fault on this one.

 

[Slyboogy]

It's only since Vettel's came along that I've heard of the argument of a champion beating a 'top-tier' team mate to join the greats.

Alonso was considered a great before he came up against Hamilon, he went up against Hamilton and he lost, and that's when the latter was a rookie, what does that say about Alonso?

Nothing, as he's a great, he doesn't need to beat top tier drivers in the same team to be considered one, along with Schumacher, Vettel and the rest.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Say what you will, but you usually learn an enormous amount about a driver when you see them pitted against another "great" driver. Alonso showed his true colors in 2007 and we therefore learned quite a bit about his driving when put to the test by his teammate.

On the rare occasions where Vettel has faced adversity in his career, he has often handled it poorly. Crash with Webber in Turkey. Incident with Karthikeyan. Disobeying orders to hold station. Just to name a few.

I think it's likely that Seb would be rattled by a teammate that could match his pace. He hasn't faced this scenario since the Junior Formulae. He's had a dream scenario for 5 years now where he's been the clear cut faster driver in the fastest car on the grid.

So consider the jury still out until he matches up with Kimi next season (I hope!!)

 

[siffert_fan]

Keke--

Are you implying that Vettel is in no way responsible for the RB BEING the "fastest car on the grid"? Lots of people made that claim re: Schumacher in the Ferrari.

Cars are not developed in a vacuum. Driver input is, and always has been, a critical part of the equation. I doubt very much that the RB would be the car it is today without Seb's input.

 

[sushifiesta]

It's not only being pitted against a great team mate, just another great driver in a similarly competitive car with battles on and off the circuit and pressure reaching boiling point. Even last year, when the Red Bull wasn't a dominant car for much of the season, there were very few battles between him and Alonso//Hamilton. I think Alonso was already considered great in 2007 because he'd beaten Schumacher in two intensely fought years. The tyres and DRS don't help in that regard because they cause battles amongst the top guys to be cut short earlier than we might like them to be more often than not.

I think Vettel is a fantastic driver mind you, there's just that slight question mark about just where he fits in relative to other champions.

 

[KekeTheKing]

I doubt very much that the RB would be the car it is today without Seb's input.

Probably not. But the fact remains that the Red Bull was the fastest (non-diffuser) car in the field in 2009, and Seb would have had very minimal (zero?) input into that design.

From archival footage it's clear that RBR had been experimenting with Flexi-Wing and Drooping Nose technology since at least 2006. It was wildly inconsistent at first but when the benefits were finally harnessed, the car was a world beater.

And them Newey mastered the EBD.....

On balance, I think it is clear that Vettel has benefitted more from RBR/Newey designs than Red Bull has from his technical input. But maybe Seb did learn some tricks in his much ballyhooed trip to the Pirelli factory.

 

[siffert_fan]

Keke

So, I guess that must also mean that Merc's improved form this year has NOTHING to do with LH. This years car was virtually all designed before he switched, therefore he had minimal (zero) input into it. And since they have obviously struck a great technical chord, it is logical that they will continue to develop the concepts embodied in the present car. According to the logic listed above, doesn't that therefore mean that, should Lewis win the WDC in the next 2 or 3 years, it will be due far more to the engineers than to Lewis's abilities?

 

[KekeTheKing]

Seeing that there's a MAJOR change in car/engine design next year, Hamilton will necessarily play a monumental role in the cars development. If a Championship does come, then both parties will have logically played their part.

So, I guess that must also mean that Merc's improved form this year has NOTHING to do with LH. This years car was virtually all designed before he switched, therefore he had minimal (zero) input into it. And since they have obviously struck a great technical chord....

I've never once claimed that Lewis is solely responsible for Mercedes' best season ever. And it has nothing to do with what I said about Seb/RBR. Not to mention that the Merc is the 3rd/4th best race car. Something Vettel hasn't dealt with since the mid point of 09'.

 

[Josh]

KekeTheKing

I think Vettel might have had above average input for a driver coming into a new team considering he drove for the baby Red Bull...

 

[Jos the Boss]

I think Schumi would like a hand in the development of the car!