Renault guilty of race fixing

[teabagyokel]

Thanks FB. It's not often I have to get my Mod stick out but on this occasion I think you deserve a damn good thrashing.

And you didn't delete that filth from the site... that's not what I call using a mod stick, cat. Unless he put worse pictures up... os:

[sarcasm]Thanks for reminding us, FB, we all needed to see that![/sarcasm]

 

[Bellabella]

I would be most interested to know how many CTA members will continue to follow F1 by either attending the race meetings or watching on TV - just curious!

 

[Brogan]

I would be most interested to know how many CTA members will continue to follow F1 by either attending the race meetings or watching on TV - just curious!

Well as much as this episode has disappointed me, I will still watch F1.

However, I will not attend any races as long as Max & Bernie (and his successor, Jean Todt) are around and until ticket prices come down to more reasonable levels.

What about you Bellabella?

Don't forget there's always BTCC, GP2, WTCC, DTM, etc. so it's not all bad

 

[teabagyokel]

I would be most interested to know how many CTA members will continue to follow F1 by either attending the race meetings or watching on TV - just curious!

Well, yes, we complain Bellabella but...

Yeah, we'll all be watching the Singapore GP on Sunday I'm sure...



We'd fly the red flag of revolution, but we know we won't make a difference! (We may be expecting an altogether different red flag on Sunday)

Come on, we're Internet Forum Activists. I only come on here to make angry comments without exasperating my family!

 

[FB]

No more pictures I promise.

Regarding Bellabella's question, I'll be there Sunday along with most others I suspect. This is perhaps a new low for the governance of the sport but it's plumbed the depths before and I'm sure it will again.

If I'm honest I've been more upset about some of the FIA antics in the past than I am about this. Having watched the FISA-FOCA war of the early 80's, Balestre's obvious jingoism in the late 80's, the failure of the sport to respond adequately (in my opinion at least) to the racism which arrived recently, rule changes which defy common sense, further rules changes which compound the problems caused by the first rule changes, etc, etc.

But I'm there, every other Sunday, and probably will be until I'm old & grey (or the oil runs out)

 

[Bellabella]

Like you I am very disappointed, having grown up with F1 it is very hard to see,these greedy men destroying a great sport. I guess I will continue to support the races mainly for the drivers, and if I am honest for the buzz I always get, although it pains me to pay the ticket prices. Alonso is my one and only!! But this year I am torn between Jenson and Reubens, I would love Jenson to win, yet feel a win for Reubens would be great too - if he could cope with the emotion! A great forum by the way - In and out of the UK quite a lot so my visits to CTA are limited.

 

[Brogan]

A great forum by the way - In and out of the UK quite a lot so my visits to CTA are limited.

Thanks.
They may be limited but they are appreciated

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

I'm thoroughly enjoying the very healthy cynicism on this thread today! I'm very bitterly disappointed with F1 for the events involved in this thread and you've all made me realise I'm not going mad by thinking this isn't good for the sport. Thank you!

 

[Brogan]

Well for me there are a lot of dots that don't join up.

Nelsinho Piquet claims it was Pat Symonds who suggested the whole plan.
Pat Symonds and "Witness X" claim it was Nelsinho Piquet who suggested it.
So Witness X's testimony is good enough to prove the whole conspiracy and convict Symonds yet the FIA don't belive Symonds or Witness X who both say it was Piquet who suggested it?
And Briatore and Symonds are punished, but Renault, NP and Witness X walk away scot free?

Alonso gets to keep his "win", Renault their position in the pits and prize money.

It was apparently the worst crime ever in F1 but Renault escape with no actual punishment?
FIA representatives explain that this is due to wider financial issues and the "good of the sport".

Conveniently the 2 persons that Max Mosley hates most in F1, one of whom was the principal proponent in setting up FOTA and the breakaway series, have been ousted.

Now I'm not normally one of those tin-foil wearing conspiracy nuts but as I say, there are too many unanswered questions.

 

[bogaTYR]

nothing new in F1 this whole story. but i do notice a tendency of these stories coming above water while before it was mainly rumours. i am certain this kind of race fixing has happened loads of times. we just never found out for sure.

me, i will watch all practices, quali and the race. and after that complain it was all dead boring. but then, you have to see the thing before you can call it boring. tricky to be an f1 fan...

 

[bogaTYR]

Well for me there are a lot of dots that don't join up.

Nelsinho Piquet claims it was Pat Symonds who suggested the whole plan.
Pat Symonds and "Witness X" claim it was Nelsinho Piquet who suggested it.
So Witness X's testimony is good enough to prove the whole conspiracy and convict Symonds yet the FIA don't belive Symonds or Witness X who both say it was Piquet who suggested it?
And Briatore and Symonds are punished, but Renault, NP and Witness X walk away scot free?

Alonso gets to keep his "win", Renault their position in the pits and prize money.

It was apparently the worst crime ever in F1 but Renault escape with no actual punishment?
FIA representatives explain that this is due to wider financial issues and the "good of the sport".

Conveniently the 2 persons that Max Mosley hates most in F1, one of whom was the principal proponent in setting up FOTA and the breakaway series, have been ousted.

Now I'm not normally one of those tin-foil wearing conspiracy nuts but as I say, there are too many unanswered questions.

if you take out NP and Mister X cos of immunity then it makes a bit more sense. but i agree, its still odd. but still, my main feeling is thank god this is over.

also, i dont agree with the macca comparison. the two baddies leaving renault before any big bang is totally different to what macca did with ron dennis staying on.

 

[RickD]

Witness X was either F.Alonso, M. Mosley or B. Ecclestone I reckon.

Is anyone really that surprised at this whitewash? A French team being tried in Paris, having never been punished for any misdemeanour before, even endangering lives and stealing IP from another team (you know, the same crime another team got a $100m fine for at the same time).

Hopefully things will be fairer with Ari (if he wins), but I doubt it will be that much different in all honesty (a word the FIA need to look up in the dictionary).

 

[FB]

To add to Rick's comments above, the recent event with the loose wheel which was supposed to have given Renault a one race ban was soon over turned for "commercial reasons". It would appear, to paraphrase George Orwell, all teams are created equal but some are more equal than others.

It does beg the question are Renault really that important to the future of F1 that the safety of drivers and spectators can be compromised? I'm sure F1 existed before Renault and when they left the sport in the mid 80's I seem to recall it continuing without too many problems.

 

[cider_and_toast]

On the subject of who suggested the idea, I don't think at the end of the day it really matters all that much.

NP was always going to be given imunity once he'd brought this to the attention of the FIA otherwise he would never have agreed to reveal the facts and of course he is going to claim it wasn't his idea. Symonds, Briatore and Witness X can all claim it was NP but the fact remains that both Symonds and Briatore were actively involved in a plan to cheat.

It's like me suggesting we rob a bank, if we get caught by the police the fact that we all point the figure at each other and say "well it wasn't my idea, it was his" makes no difference. Who suggested the plan isn't as important as the fact that we all conspired to rob the bank.

It was either a case of NP approaching B and S in order to gain favour within the team or B and S approaching NP and saying do this and you'll be in the car next year. Either way in terms of the overall crime it dosn't really matter because once the decision to go through with it had been reached it needed all the participants to work on the plan and conspire together. At any point Briatore, Symonds or Witness X could have said "No, This is wrong and we are not going to do it". In the case of Witness X if he was really that shocked by it he could have reported the matter straight away to the relevent authorities.

On a different note, it's very telling on the audio track of the summing up and verdict on the FIA website that great pains are made to point out the difference between Renault F1 and the Renault car company. It would seem that the whole thing has hinged on not upsetting a manufacturer.

Renaults position in the sport has been in question for years with the team always topping the "most likely to pull out" poll. Would it be a problem if they did leave? Not as far as I can see. There is already a team waiting in the wings to jump into that spot (BMW). There is already an engine supplier capable of filling the gap if teams using the Renault engine can't sort out an alternative (Cosworth) so what was the "financial issue". I presume it would have been the months of legal appeals and arguments that would have tied down the FIA during this election period. Couldn't have that could we. Then, borrowing Brogans conspiracy hat, May it also have something to do with ensuring the French remain in the right camp given that one of the runners and Max's favourite is also a Frenchman. Wouldn't look to good if the potential new president couldn't score one for France would it? Ok Bro, you can have your hat back now.

 

[teabagyokel]

Is it just me or does: Briatore, Symonds, street circuit, deliberate crash ring a bell to me:

By the way, Witness X is a brave man, isn't he? If there were only 4 of them in the meeting then Flav actually knows who you are, X!

 

[GeoffP]

Just my take...

Meeting 1:

Attendees - Flavio, Pat, Nelsinho and the charismatic Mr.X (probably Nelsinho's race engineer)

Discussion - Nelsinho throws in the suggestion of a deliberate crsah to help Fernando back to the front, Mr.X shocked, general mumbling. Other discussions, meeting adjourned.


Meeting 2:

Attendees - Flavio and Pat

Discussion - Flavio chews over the idea of the deliberate crash, agrees with Pat to hold further meeting with Nelsinho, Pat to table idea and Flavio there to be large and intimidating in the corner...


Meeting 2:

Attendees - Flavio, Pat and Nelsinho

Discussion - Pat instructs Nelsinho to crash, Nelsinho intimidated, but it's his original idea (maybe flippant), so what the hell!


Result - Everyone's story ties.

 

[Brogan]

By the way, Witness X is a brave man, isn't he? If there were only 4 of them in the meeting then Flav actually knows who you are, X![/font]

Good point.

I had assumed Witness X was the only other person at the meeting and if he was then I suspect his name will be leaked eventually.

If however there were more people present then the conspiracy to cheat goes a lot further than 2/3 people as the FIA claim.

 

[GeoffP]

I get the impression that Mr.X leaked his information to Renault management through standard whisleblower laws, hence FIA only finding out when Renault submitted evidence. It may therefore be that the FIA do not even have the name so their colander approach to secrecy my not be an issue.

If the name is released it would be from Renault, therefore they would be breaking corporate law, or one of the other meeting attendees - I can't see any would have anything to gain from that, and only Flavio would be potentially looking to grind an axe at this stage...

 

[teabagyokel]

By the way,

"I would like to acknowledge my role in this incident," stated Symonds.

"I was the one who, when the idea was first suggested to me by Nelson Piquet Jr, should have dismissed it immediately.

"It is to my eternal regret and shame I did not do so. I can only say I did it out of a misguided devotion to my team and not for any personal gain whatsoever.

"I consider the role I have played in bringing the team to where it is today to be my life's work.

"In a single action I have destroyed the high reputation I have built up during a 33-year career in motor sport. On that night in Singapore last year I made a mistake the consequences of which I could never have imagined at the time.

"For that mistake I can only offer all of you, and all those touched by the action I was involved in, my profound apology."

(from BBC Sport)

Lets go through this, eh, Flav. No suing of everything that moves. No denying any involvement despite the evidence stacking higher than Everest. Sorrow to everyone affected.

Thats how you do it when you're caught red-handed.

The person I feel sorry for is Felipe Massa, who is not today World Champion due to this disgraceful cheating. Pity you didn't think of anyone else, guys!

 

[WheelNutsV24]

I feel some sympathy for Rosberg, it would have been his first win in F1 and Williams team for a few years.

They must feel a tad angry.