Red Bull and Ferrari front wings

[snowy]

Aero elasticity explained:

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/aero-elasticity-–-red-bulls-front-wing/

Scarbs writes:

The wings endplates springing up as the car rapidly loses speed and the aero load applied to the wing diminishes. This was clearly visible from the early season races and as early as the Chinese GP I emailed the FIA about this practice and whether it was deemed legal. They reiterated the standard 500n – 10mm deflection test and suggested the car was legal, not directly countering the point that the wing is seen flexing. While most teams wings will flex at high speed, whereby some movement is often seen as the car brakes from high speed. The amount of movement and the low speed at which it starts to occur are startling with the Red Bull wing. The point made by the FIA to me back in April and again after the German GP in late July was that the car met the deflection test, thus was legal to race.

 

[Muddytalker]

(reply to Snowy's earlier post) Indeed. Charlie Whiting is what I think they call an arbiter of fact. His remit is basically "Given that Part A is allowed to x, but not allowed to do y, if you apply the test procedure described in diagram 1, does Part A get as far as x?" Check.
"Does it stop before getting to y?" Check.

Charlie isn't there to test whether Part A also does z, if z is neither defined nor tested, nor is he there to examine whether the test procedure is adequate.

Again, this whole episode, as well as the DDDs, blown diffusers, F-Ducts and everything else that has a design brief is always going to occur if you allow the constructors and by extension designers (that have a very specific vested interest) to make the rules.

 

[Brogan]

Taken from Scarb's excellent post:

An F1 car makes its own weight in downforce at just 70mph, that’s ~600kg of load on the car, half of this load is from the wings and half from the diffuser, thus the wings create some 300Kg of load at this speed. With the cars centre of pressure being some where near 45% forward biased, this means the front wing is creating something like 140Kg of load, split between the left and right wing each wing is producing 70Kg of load at just 70Mph. this is the speed of the slowest turn at the Hungaroring this weekend and only slightly faster than the hairpin at Monaco! Thus the FIA limit of 50kg is vastly under specified for the actual load an F1 car sees at even the slowest circuits. Its not surprising a team can created a wing to beat the 50Kg-10mm deflection test and yet achieve far greater deflections, suggested to be as much as 25mm, at much faster corners.

As a lot of people have been saying, at speed the load on the front wing is far more than 50kg and as such the FIA test is useless in its current form.

 

[Muddytalker]

That's some good numbering, right there; And if accurate, again raises the question of why no-one has done it earlier!

 

[Bullfrog]

I'd imagine it has been done to some extent, in fact they had a similar flexing/bowing of rear wing elements before it was banned. I think Red Bull have just managed to get a far greater flex this season, it might also explain Paddy Lowe's cluelessness, he understands the principal but not how they're getting it to flex so much.

 

[Brogan]

Red Bull mechanics have been seen sanding down the bottom edge of the front wings due to them scraping on the ground.

Apparently the teams have asked the FIA for official clarification due to the FIA's reluctance to do so pro-actively.

You have to wonder why the FIA are being so obstinate in the face of so much evidence.

Yes we know the wings pass the standard load test but it has been proven unequivocally that under speed they are dropping down as much as 25-30mm which is way outside the 10mm permitted when static.

 

[snowy]

I suspect that now the flexi wing is out in the open RBR has dramatically increased the amount the wing moves. That may explain why they are so much quicker than Ferrari and McLaren than they've been recently. They're making hay while the sun shines.

 

[Brogan]

From what I understand, the teams have asked the FIA to rule on another measurement/height now and that is that the bottom edge of the front wing must be 85mm above the plank.

If the wing is scraping on the ground then quite clearly it isn't.

If the FIA once again pass the Red Bull wing then you would have to conclude there is something rotten in the state of Denmark.

 

[Brogan]

My brain hurts

Apparently there is some suggestion now that it might be related to the floor.

Rival outfits do not have a firm answer for exactly what the two pace-setting teams are doing, and the FIA has found nothing wrong with the cars. However, attention is now shifting to a cleverly designed floor area that could help allow the wing to lower at high speed - rather than the key to the matter being simply flexible endplates.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85758

 

[Wombcat]

From what I understand, the teams have asked the FIA to rule on another measurement/height now and that is that the bottom edge of the front wing must be 85mm above the plank.

If the wing is scraping on the ground then quite clearly it isn't.

If the FIA once again pass the Red Bull wing then you would have to conclude there is something rotten in the state of Denmark.

Indeed. According to the regulations the wing must be 85 mm above the plank at all times. It's quite obvious the RBR and Ferrari aren't. That it doesn't show in the current test the FIA uses, doesn't make them legal.

 

[Brogan]

The Red Bull and Ferrari wings have once again been ruled legal.

The report said the tests carried out at the Hungaroring involved placing 50kg weights on the endplates, with no more than 10mm of downwards flexibility allowed.

http://en.espnf1.com/hungary/motorsport/story/25115.html

I expect this decision will leave a lot of people baffled.

Yes we know they pass the 50kg load test.
It's under race conditions that they are illegal as has been shown with video, still images and detailed analysis.

The FIA once again would seem to be at odds with the sport.

 

[teabagyokel]

I still think absolutely anyone could have won the German GP.

So it seems the 50kg load test is flawed. If its illegal ON THE TRACK then surely its illegal?

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

I've got a feeling the original Auto Motor und Sport story regarding the wings getting the all-clear again this weekend may be spurious. I've seen no other mention of this information from anywhere else.

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

FIA to beef up wing tests for Spa?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85817

 

[ATL11]

Be interesting if this then stops the flexing we've seen and if it does then what will Ferrari's & Red Bull's times be like?

Cause with the flexing we saw on the slowmo pictures from Hungary, these cars would have been getting Ground effect, hence the unbelievable time & the need to use emery paper on the underside of Seb's front wing this weekend....

 

[snowy]

If the wing requires a lateral, a twisting or an optimum force to induce the flexing just chucking more weight at it in a downward direction isn't going to reveal that much. I am pretty sure the Red Bull will cruise through a 102kg load test.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

I still believe that it's about more than just a flexing wing. If you look at the first picture on James Allen's website here,

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/p ... -yourself/

It seems pretty clear that while the wing does flex downwards at the endplates, it is very low in the middle section as well, compared to the Mclaren in particular. Could it be that rumours of tricky goings-on with the floor, which somehow allow the whole front wing to be run closer to the ground, are nearer the mark?

 

[Brogan]

Could it be that rumours of tricky goings-on with the floor, which somehow allow the whole front wing to be run closer to the ground, are nearer the mark?

The fact that the FIA has now banned them would seem to suggest it's more than a rumour.

It is also understood that the FIA is to clamp down on teams using clever fixings and joints on the underfloor of the car – amid suspicions that this is one area that teams could also be exploiting the regulations.

Edit: Not banned yet but expected to be.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Brogan said:It is also understood that the FIA is to clamp down on teams using clever fixings and joints on the underfloor of the car – amid suspicions that this is one area that teams could also be exploiting the regulations.

So could we also expect to see the Ferraris and Red Bulls at Spa with stiffer, higher wings and the Mclarens much more on their pace? I certainly hope so.

 

[sportsman]

Brogan said:It is also understood that the FIA is to clamp down on teams using clever fixings and joints on the underfloor of the car – amid suspicions that this is one area that teams could also be exploiting the regulations.

So could we also expect to see the Ferraris and Red Bulls at Spa with stiffer, higher wings and the Mclarens much more on their pace? I certainly hope so.

That will be interesting to see if they do appear with different wings.That will leave us with the question of why.