Red Bull and Ferrari front wings

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
The FIA has given the front wing designs of Red Bull Racing and Ferrari the all-clear in post German Grand Prix inspections, following a flexi-parts row in the build-up to the race. Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali, who discussed the wing matter with McLaren in the build-up to the race, said that the situation did not worry him. "I've seen some pictures of the wing, but you could see that they were taken from very different angles," he said. "So, I don't have anything to say on that. I feel that is part of the pressure that is part of the game." No doubt teams like McLaren and Mercedes will be hastily producing there versions of these front wings, (if they arent already) for the next grand prix in just a weeks time
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Rival teams who were suspicious of the Red Bull Racing and Ferrari design will now have to decide whether they now also need to find ways to lower their front wings in a bid to find a performance boost.
This quote is that last line in the Autosport article on the subject. What I can't understand is how you can lower the front wing given that the last few batches of rule changes have progressively raised the front wing. It does sound like a return to the early 80's 6cm ground clearance rule that teams quickly sussed could only be measured when the car was stationary. As a result they all had inbuilt systems to lower the car to the ground when out on the track and raise it again in the pits.

Now, if the FIA accept that these new wings don't flex then I'm not too sure on how else that teams could find ways to lower their front wings.

It all seems very odd.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
Again it's a fudge of the rules which the FIA are either ignoring, not implementing or have no valid means of checking.

Is it any wonder F1 is held in such little regard when stuff like this goes on all the time?

I'm all for innovation but make the rules clear and simple and easy to understand so everyone has a fair chance and not just those teams who can afford the best lawyers to interpret them.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
"If one does not clean it up, Formula One will end up in a quagmire of plagiarism, chicanery and petty rule interpretation forced by lobbies manipulated by people for whom the word sport has no meaning.'
Extract of a letter to FISA dictated to Jabby Crombac by Colin Chapman - 1981.

I've posted this on a number of occasions before but it's worth posting again. Enough said really.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
It's always worth reposting that cat :thumbsup:

F1 these days is nothing more than an elaborate game of "hunt the loophole" and bloody annoying it is too!
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
The issue becomes clearer:

Article 3.15 of the F1 technical regulations states that bodywork that affects the aerodynamic performance of the car: "must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom)" and "must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car."

Such flexibility in the front wing is tested with a deflection test on the wing endplates, but there is currently no test for the flexibility of the central section.
So are the FIA going to introduce such a test or are they going to allow the teams to get away with what is effectively a(nother) loophole in the existing rules?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85532
 

siffert_fan

Too old to watch the Asian races live.
Contributor
I love the phrase "Domenicali discussed"--after reading his answers to questions concerning team orders and other issues, I have come to the conclusion that his "discussions" are either obfuscation or gibberish or a collection of the two! :disappointed:
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Does anyone know who the poor driver steward was for this weekend? Sounds like they had a pretty busy time.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Didn't Ross Brawn admit Ferrari had a "legal" flexible rear wing when he was there? It does sound like the teams pushing the limits just to check the stewards are on their toes, which F1 has always done. I thought Horners point was quite sensible (blimey, never thought I would write that) that if the other teams felt the wing was illegal they should protest it. Problem is they never strip teams of their points if they are found to have broken the rules, which might focus their minds a little when they push the boundaries.

Comes back to my point about everything being legal in F1 until it is banned with no retrospective punishment, such as Renault's mass damper and the Ferrari double floor.
 

MajorDanby

Motorsports' answer to Eric the Eel
Contributor
Autosport have reported that rather than putting in a protest about the front wings, instead McLaren will try to copy the RedBull and Ferrari systems, quoted in the article as running close to 25mm closer to the ground than their McLaren rivals
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
The outer section of the wings clearly rise upwards when entering the corner, which you would expect as the speed decreases and the downforce reduces, implying flexing when under load.

However, you would need to compare the lap with a wing that is known to be non-flexing, as it might be a standard effect. Perhaps for reference, it should be noted that everything has flexibility to a degree, some materials more than others.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
As I understand it, it's the central section of the wing which is flexing under load, for which there is no test.

The end plates are not permitted to flex and have been found to comply with the rules.
 

snowy

Champion Elect
Some more photos on this page:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7658&start=1590

Brogan said:
As I understand it, it's the central section of the wing which is flexing under load, for which there is no test.

The end plates are not permitted to flex and have been found to comply with the rules.
Very interesting... How come it's taken them half a decade to figure out a way to get round this rule!? :o

If this is what and how they are doing this F1 designer's must be a bunch of numpties, I could have brainstormed that in a matter of minutes.
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
Brogan said:
As I understand it, it's the central section of the wing which is flexing under load, for which there is no test.

The end plates are not permitted to flex and have been found to comply with the rules.
That's what I heard also. But what is the flex test for the end section? Is it a measure of flex laterally (i.e. like a droopy moustache :moustache: when looked head-on), or what I suppose might be called torsional flex (i.e. the angle of attack flattens out when under load)?

To put it another way, if the central section flexes 'torsionally', then if you assume that the outer sections rotate consistently with the middle section, the rear of the endplates would be lower to the ground, creating a part seal, perhaps all of the endplate depending on how they were set up around the axis of rotation.

Or I could just be talking rubbish...
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
Or I could just be talking rubbish...
Which of course I am, judging by the pics from snowy's post (though I think my idea is a better piece of genius :))

This begs the question what is the load test? Hang a weight off the endpiece, but hold the main section of the wing steady without any degrees of freedom up to 20cm from the endplate? That's only testing the outer section, not the wing in full.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
It's an interesting point Muddy.
Unfortunately I don't have time to dig through the reg's to see what the actual test entails as that would answer a few questions.
 

snowy

Champion Elect

A more interesting video showing Mark Webber's front wing depressed during acceleration and rising up under braking!
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
snowy said:
A more interesting video showing Mark Webber's wings depressed during acceleration and rising up under braking!
That more than anything explains Red Bull's huge downforce and grip through corners such as turn 8 at Turkey.

If the others try to copy this though, they could find themselves with penalties for illegal bodywork until they get it right.
 
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