Now the German GP might be cancelled for 2010...

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Oh dear. Just what is going wrong with F1?
The German GP is in doubt for 2010 after the Nürburgring said it would not step in if the Hockenheimring cannot hold the event.

At this rate there'll be almost none of the "traditional" circuits left and within a few years we might be down to 15 GPs or less per season.

Surely this must make CVC sit up and take notice?
They obviously know that the high cost of hosting a GP is the main problem for a lot of non-government funded circuits so why don't they reduce the cost?
Are they that bothered about profit that they're prepared to let the circuits with the biggest fan bases go?

As we have already seen this season, the newer circuits are almost empty and even in some of the traditional older circuits, the crowds seem to be smaller than usual.
Due no doubt to the high ticket prices which the circuits have to charge in an attempt to recoup some of the cost of hosting the GP.

If this continues for a few more years then CVC will be responsible for the demise of F1.

Full story here: German GP in doubt for 2010 season
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
I can't see how this business plan can possibly work myself. The places that fans want to see GPs at cannot due to exorbitant costs, whilst the places that cannot get any support are those that'll pay. But surely if you can't get people in, you soon will not want to pay the CVC ransom, since you are making a loss. The PRC (who bus people in and can't fill their stadium) are considering their position, and they won't be the last.

It can't work, it just cannot work. It takes economics and tortures it to death!
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
It's something I've never understood but very endemic of these modern times. A company sells something at a pound an item. Sales go down so in order to make as much money they increase the price to 2 pounds an item and sales go down further until it all falls down.

This is why Bernie is so keen to attract government backing for races because it guarentees CVC income regardless of gate receipts. Until CVC are forced to accept contracts where they recieve a proportion of the gate reciepts as a fee they won't worry. Mind you, even then they will just cause the price of a ticket to be jacked up so much that no one can afford to go.

German has always been regarded as a fixture of the F1 callendar and must be on there next year. I don't think there are any other class one circuits besides Hockenheim and the ring so an alternate venue would be out of the question?
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
cider_and_toast said:
German has always been regarded as a fixture of the F1 callendar and must be on there next year. I don't think there are any other class one circuits besides Hockenheim and the ring so an alternate venue would be out of the question?
That all depends on how much the government of Vietnam want to pay to hold the race at the new Ho Chi Minh Marina Circuit in Ho Chi Minh City, to be held in September at night with little or no local interest.

KEY: Sub in as appropriate to random Asian country
Delete depending on time zone


Anyway, you get the point with that! (If Montreal was the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve Marina, they'd still have a race!)
 

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
cider_and_toast said:
It's something I've never understood but very endemic of these modern times. A company sells something at a pound an item. Sales go down so in order to make as much money they increase the price to 2 pounds an item and sales go down further until it all falls down.
a better example would be, guy wants to sell a bag of sugar in a paper bag and finds out there is a bigger market for sugar in a plastic bag.

circuits seem to be easily exchangable in F1 these days, after all, its a TV sport! so whats the difference of a race in germany and vietnam? not a lot really, still cars going round on a tv screen. i think many tv viewers dont even know where the race is being held and why should they? they are all nicely in front of their tv sets.

its all great to have these sentiments for these circuits from a spectator point of view, but compared to the tv audience thats a fraction of the viewers. business seems to be less abotu these emotions, really.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
You're missing the point somewhat boga.

The circuits only make money from ticket sales and other items purchased within the grounds by fans attending the races.
They have to pay a huge fee to Bernie/CVC to host a GP and in most (all?) cases they make a significant loss.

If all the races move to countries with government funding then those governments will only support the situation of shelling out to host a GP at a huge loss for so long.
China has already mentioned that it may reconsider its position due to the loss it makes on every GP.

So if this situation continues eventually all we'll have left is a handful of government-funded races in front of empty stands.
And when those governments decide to no longer fund the races then there'll be nothing left at all.

Granted for the average TV viewer it doesn't make much difference but if circuits can't afford to host GPs, CVC won't get any income and won't be able to service their debt, ultimately going bankrupt.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
On the marketing of items during a GP weekend.

The first GP I went to was the 1992 British GP and you could walk around almost the whole outside of the circuit and the items on sale (T-shirts, badges, books etc) were sold by independant stalls for various prices. The next GP I went to was the 1996 British GP. By then the sales were confined to "Sales Villages" and the stalls were restricted to selling the same items at the same price regardless of who owned the stalls. All items had to have the official FIA stamp etc etc. Most team T-shirts, and please keep in mind this was 13 years ago, were on sale for over 30 pounds.

Oh F1 is such a fan friendly sport isn't it.
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years, you saw the National motorsport federations being effectivly "taxed" as a group by CVC and the GP's being distributed between circuits.

I.E. You'd have 6 European rounds, 4 Asian rounds, 4 in the middle/far east etc etc and then the races are shared between available circuits with them getting the gate money.
 

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
bro,

i did understand but as you know, i like to sharpen things.

i don't understand this focussing on circuits. i can see the emotional value of for instance a silverstone, but at the same time, that's it.

even if F1 would have completely different circuits every year, i am convinced the sport will still thrive. for the very simple reason that it does not really matter where the race is held. there will always be countries and circuits who would love to hold an F1 race. all CVC needs are cars going round on TV screens.

remember valencia? we raced in some harbour district with massive walls and only fans in certain areas. and still people watched the race, ok, lots of people including me thought it was downright horrible but it was held and still viewing ratings were massive. most of the time we saw cars racing down a concrete corridor.

there will always be countries wanting to have a GP, ok, we might end up in kazakhstan, vietnam or mongolia and maybe even congo, but there will be races. this is worldwide viewing! and thats the case for governments paying up, its an honour and a privilge to hold an F1 race.

as long as there are contries or circuits who are willing to pay for whatever reason to hold a truly global sporting event, then F1 wil thrive. and thats one great big kudo to bernie for building this situation.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
While I understand what you are saying Boga, there comes a time when the mass of viewers won't be content with what they see and will drift away. The lack of people through the gates during a GP weekend will eventually be reflected in the lack of viewers.

Just imagine if there is no British GP next year for the first time in almost 60 years. How many viewers in the UK would stop watching? North America which is one of the biggest markets that can be exploited by sponsorship, treats F1 with very little interest. With more races moving into the middle east/far east the bulk of South America will have to get up in the middle of the night to watch them affecting another market area.

F1 is becoming harder to sell to new fans especially with dull as dishwater races such as Valencia.

While F1 will always strive to attract new viewers because that generates new money there isn't much point in turning away existing fans. The loss of Canada was a big blow to a lot of fans as it was a track the virtually gaurenteed some action. The short term drive for debt repayment you get the impression that CVC would hold a race in an empty swimming pool providing the owner met the ransom. It wouldn't be a great race but hey at least CVC has been paid and the show can roll on.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
Just to put things into perspective here's a few lists:

Gone but not forgotten

Canada
USA
France

Almost certainly gone

Fuji
Silverstone
Hockenheim

In trouble

Germany (Ring may not host if Hockenheim dosn't make it)
Japan (Suzuka may not host if Fuji pulls out)
Donnington (Funding issues)

Hanging on by their finger nails

China (reports that government may pull backing)
Spa (one of the few tracks that managed to come back but for how long?)

And waiting in the wings

Recent new or proposed future additions to the season
(some of which are speculation and rumour but included for completeness)

Bulgaria
Abu Dhabi
Valencia
Singapore
Paris
South Korea
India
Moscow
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Got to agree with cat on this, I will not bother watching some GPs this year. I will probably still record them just in case something exciting happens. Valencia being a case in point. Can anyone truly say they are looking forward to this ultimate snoozefest?
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
I say go back to Ain-Daib! What could be nicer?

TRACKS TO HOST 1 GP (at end of 2009)

Ain-Daib (1958, MOR) Winner: S. Moss, Vanwall
Avus (1959, GER) Winner: T. Brooks, Ferrari
Dallas (1984, USA) Winner: K. Rosberg, Williams
Donnington (1993, EUR) Winner: A. Senna, McLaren
Le Mans (1967, FRA) Winner: J. Brabham, Brabham
Monsato (1959, POR) Winner: S. Moss, Cooper
Pescara (1957) Winner: S. Moss, Vanwall
Riverside (1960, USA) Winner: S. Moss, Lotus
Sebring (1959, USA) Winner: B. McLaren, Cooper
Yas Marina (2009, ABD)
Zeltweg (1964, AUT) Winner: L. Bandini, Ferrari

It seems that if Moss won a race they cancelled it!

(Then again... look at tracks that are going atm...

Silverstone (2008 HAM)
Hockenheim (2008 HAM)
Montreal (2007 HAM)
Indianapolis (2007 HAM)
Fuji (2007 HAM)

He's only won 9 races and 5 of the tracks have gone...!

Shanghai is probably going too! Lets hope Hungaroring and Monaco also bite the bullet soon, and leave Hammy with the Australian GP to win! But be fair, they've got rid of Magny-Cours, which is the only circuit Massa has won at to go!)
 
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