Nicki Lauda - Chump of the Weekend.

[VanChallis]

Lewis should have known Jenson was going to move to the left, it was the normal racing line into the right hand sweeper leading into the chicane. He had done so on the previous laps with Lewis following. Lewis should also have realized that Jenson probably wouldn't have been able to sight him in the spray. A little more foresight on Lewis's part and better racecraft would have saved the situation. It doesn't compare to the Schumacher episode in Hungary. Barrichello was already alongside Schumacher when he tried to squeeze him.

I see what you mean, but Lewis was so much faster out of the chicane after Button slightly messed it up that he didn't really have the opportunity to go to the right, as Jenson was still there but making his way across. It was just unfortunate timing really, if Lewis was even 5 yards further back he'd probably have gone right. It's the nature of the sport, accidents will happen. My problem is with penalties being given out for people trying to race. Fair enough, if someone messes up and smacks into the back of someone (Kobayashi on Sutil at Monaco springs to mind) then there should be some kind of penalty. (There wasn't in this case) But if you go for a move that is on (even if it's a bit of a long shot) and there ends up being contact, it's racing. That's my view anyway.
I have the feeling that Lewis is trying so hard to be on terms with the Red Bulls in a car, that under normal circumstances, is not on terms at all, and I don't think he should be massively criticised for doing so.

This little comment is one I'm sure that Lewis lives by;
"If you no longer go for a gap, that exists, you're no longer a racing driver" Ayrton Senna

 

[gethinceri]

Lauda's choice of words is ridiculous also.
Exaggerating and likening his driving to the terrifying times (car, not driver) of 30-40 years ago is unfair, and not what you would expect from someone involved in racing at the time.

I concur.
Lauda is no longer a racing driver, he earns his living from other sources such as TV commentary. He has no need to be considered or reserved in his opinions so he can say what he likes, it is up to his audience to decide whether his comments are accurate and justified. I think that in this case he's coming from the wrong side of 30 years ago and although he has experienced the tragic side of F1 that only 2 current drivers have seen he is not the driver, not in the car and not capable of calling the shots on this incident between Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button.
That's not to say that any of us are either.
For the sake of it, If Hamilton had been even quicker out of the corner (or Button any slower) then he'd have been alongside with more space to get through, Button would've seen him and left space for the inevitable overtake.

 

[F1ang-o]

What do you mean... almost?

Lewis gets on with racing....he sees a space & goes for it....no should I, could I, would I, he goes for it. He has brought milions to F1 because he gets on with it. Yesterday he was robbed, not only because of Schuie & Button but because he was told by his team to retire.....he only had a puncture & was making his way back when he was told to park the car & retire from the race, another disgraceful Mclaren descision?
I have just watched the race again up to the part where Button put Lewis in the wall.
Lewis & Mark's brushing together was a racing incident.....nothing in the same league as Mark smashing into Lewis in Singapore last year....he put Lewis out of the race, but it went on record as a racing incident.

Anyway back to Canada..& the BBC commentary from Martin Brundle & David Coulthard

Lap 5
Button's gone too deep into the corner,
Schui & Lewis pass JB but are struggling for grip.
Lap 6
DC...once again Lewis gets wide & you can see Michael comes across and he's pushed Lewis wide.
MB
"And Lewis will lose out to Button, will he lose out to anybody else?
Michael very much squeezed him onto the grass...did he push him onto the grass?"

TV SCREEN Cars 2 & 3 Webber & Hamilton under investigation
My thoughts went back to Singapore when Mark slammed into the LHS of Lewis' car & put him out of the race....a racing incident my posterier. NO PENALTY

Well, watching it from my TV screen & I can see Lewis overtaking JB,......seems strange that JB looks in his mirrors, he's right next to LH, and seems to do a little in/out movement...just enough to make Lewis react. LH doesn't drive into other drivers........and makes contact with the pit wall.

I think DC commentary then is priceless...even for his biased norm,
"Lewis Hamilton with obvious suspension damage, puncture...I'll be suprised if he makes it round, back into the pits. The problem is in those conditions, Jenson can't see in his mirrors, so much spray coming off the front axle, that any visability you have is just cancelled. "
"This is incredible... Lewis is touching with Mark, touching with Michael..well almost touching with Michael.......(good grief he has completely changed what he said at the time of the incident)
"Will there be a safety car?"
MB
"Well it's the suspension broken...oh no, it's just the wheel rim, looks like he went against the wall,"
(could have hit JB instead).

JB radio "What is he doing?"
DC " I don't think you'll get an answer to that Jenson"
MB "I think he was trying to pass you Jenson!"

Jenson it is a race...Lewis was overtaking you.....JENSON.....Lewis is faster than you.....

IMO Jenson ought to be disqualified.

Lewis didn't hit the other team car, he didn't hit Schumi & he brushed with Mark...who finished in a podium position.
In Monaco the same, he saw a space got in it...& Massa & Maldanado turned in on him....Alguasuari tried from a different angle....makes a change from Petrov always on his case.

 

[Porceliamone]

Just to back up my comments, here's a post I wrote last year in response to Hamilton being labelled reckless.

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/lewis-hamilton-racer-or-reckless.780/#post-9672

Considering it was his first season, his overall performance and results, and the fact that he only had 1 retirement which involved no-one but himself, you have to question why he was labelled so early on as a reckless or dangerous driver.

Hamilton is aggressive, cocksure and has consistently pulled moves most drivers wouldn't make stick nor have the balls to attempt. The reason drivers defend SO HARD when he’s coming up is because they know that it’s almost inevitable he will pass them.

Most of all though it's a simple as this: in F1 other drivers are scared of Lewis Hamilton.

This is reflected in the statements they make in general, amongst themselves and most importantly, to the media. This in itself becomes a vicious circle.

Hamilton won't and shouldn't (in my opinion) change his driving style and other drivers and the media will continue to talk about it negatively because it serves their interests. It feeds itself and is nigh on impossible to stop.

It really pisses me off that such an exciting talent in F1 is constantly bemoaned for doing the thing 99% of the public moan that they want more of in the sport – EXCITING RACING AND EXCITING RACING DRIVERS.

Apologies for so much bold but I have strong feelings on the matter! For me; Lauda can 'do one' following his comments. Especially live on TV. Disgusting.

 

[F1ang-o]

I agree to be honest, he was getting everything from that McLaren and then some, and going for his moves too (for once!) I thought it was his best race for some time.

I said when JB went to Mclaren, that he only went there to study Lewis' driving technique up close.

DC has droned on about Lewis learning from Jenson....learning what? How to be a low/to middling driver?

JB is in it for JB & LH is a team player, he proved that on Sunday.
IMO that would have been his best race ever...if he hadn't hit his team mate, and put FA off the track.
How different it would have been for Lewis in JB position.

 

[The Artist.....]

Hamilton is aggressive, cocksure and has consistently pulled moves most drivers wouldn't make stick nor have the balls to attempt. The reason drivers defend SO HARD when he’s coming up is because they know that it’s almost inevitable he will pass them.

There is the other argument that Hamilton when overtaking is giving the drivers a choice - let me through or have an accident. If drivers stand up to aggressive overtaking manoeuvres, then they're going to end up having contact! Hamilton may get demonised, but he is also not always 100% innocent either!

 

[VanChallis]

Hamilton is aggressive, cocksure and has consistently pulled moves most drivers wouldn't make stick nor have the balls to attempt. The reason drivers defend SO HARD when he’s coming up is because they know that it’s almost inevitable he will pass them.

Most of all though it's a simple as this: in F1 other drivers are scared of Lewis Hamilton.

This is reflected in the statements they make in general, amongst themselves and most importantly, to the media. This in itself becomes a vicious circle.

Hamilton won't and shouldn't (in my opinion) change his driving style and other drivers and the media will continue to talk about it negatively because it serves their interests. It feeds itself and is nigh on impossible to stop.

It really pisses me off that such an exciting talent in F1 is constantly bemoaned for doing the thing 99% of the public moan that they want more of in the sport – EXCITING RACING AND EXCITING RACING DRIVERS.

Apologies for so much bold but I have strong feelings on the matter! For me; Lauda can 'do one' following his comments. Especially live on TV. Disgusting.

I'm not quite as vocal about it, but fair play, you've come across a good point there. If you spoke to any of the drivers and asked them `which driver would you least like to be right behind you?` I bet the answer from most would be Lewis, as they know there is a good chance he'll put a move on them, and it's going to be a big confidence boost to any of them to keep Lewis behind them, maybe that's why they defend so hard. Looking at Monaco, in both incidents, the opposing driver turned in really early, and if anyone says that Massa didn't see Lewis coming, watch him looking in his left Mirror as Lewis started to come up the inside.
Lewis will naturally calm down a bit as the years go by, it happened to Senna, so why not him? (I'm not comparing the two, but Lewis is the closest thing I've seen since)

 

[sobriety]

There is the other argument that Hamilton when overtaking is giving the drivers a choice - let me through or have an accident.

Senna used to do that, didn't he?

 

[F1ang-o]

Between the three top drivers, Hamilton is the only one of the three who did not waltz straight into a top car, and is the one of the three who was least groomed.

Hamilton was 22 when he came into F1, he did all the junior formulae. The same cannot be said for Alonso and Vettel. Nor Raikkonen and Button.

Hamilton went straight to McLaren. Anyone here believe that Alonso was going anywhere but Renault in 2001? Was Vettel's Red Bull/BMW funding incidental?

F1 does not exist in a vacuum and thus this is a ridiculous, embarrassing and incorrect decision.

As for Niki Lauda, he's talking crap, and I think we can leave it at that.

Here's all of Lewis' F1 retirements by the way:

• Canada 2011 - attempting to overtake Jenson Button collided with him
• Singapore 2010 - taken out by Mark Webber having taken the corner
• Italy 2010 - collided with Felipe Massa and damaged steering arm
• Hungary 2010 - transmission failure
• Spain 2010 - wheel rim failure
• Abu Dhabi 2009 - brake failure
• Belgium 2009 - ploughed into by Romain Grosjean
• Canada 2008 - ploughed into Kimi Raikkonen at pit exit
• China 2007 - beached in pit lane gravel trap

None of those were dangerous, and its not bad for someone both reckless and a car breaker. Apparently.

 

[F1ang-o]

Canada 2008 Kimi Raikkonen was double parked at the pit lane exit..lights red. Lewis came up behind a stopped car,saw it at the last moment, pulled left...... & there was Kimi. Rosberg then ran into Lewis. Being double parked.... ...may have given Kimi a quick get away, but it cut off... the run off area. No one remembers the facts...Just what Lewis did.
Spa 2009 Grosjean spun Button out of the race.Lewis backed off to avoid collision with them & was hit by a Torro Roso...Alguasari.
Monza 2010 Felipe must have seen Lewis going for the gap...but ran into him......well Mclaren must have strengthened the car, cos it didn't work at Monaco when the situation was almost the same.
Singapore 2010 Mark ran into Lewis & put him out of the race, Mark went on his way.
Canada 2011 Hit the pit wall...not the other team car....he only had a puncture & should have got back in the race. But team told him to retire.

 

[The Artist.....]

Canada 2008 Kimi Raikkonen was double parked at the pit lane exit..lights red. Lewis came up behind a stopped car,saw it at the last moment, pulled left...... & there was Kimi. Rosberg then ran into Lewis. Being double parked.... ...may have given Kimi a quick get away, but it cut off... the run off area. No one remembers the facts...Just what Lewis did.
Spa 2009 Grosjean spun Button out of the race.Lewis backed off to avoid collision with them & was hit by a Torro Roso...Alguasari.
Monza 2010 Felipe must have seen Lewis going for the gap...but ran into him......well Mclaren must have strengthened the car, cos it didn't work at Monaco when the situation was almost the same.
Singapore 2010 Mark ran into Lewis & put him out of the race, Mark went on his way.
Canada 2011 Hit the pit wall...not the other team car....he only had a puncture & should have got back in the race. But team told him to retire.

Some of this is trying to defend the indefensible...

Don't try and defend Canada 2008 - It was a mistake by both Hamilton and Rosberg!

Monza 2010 - Hamilton stuck the nose of his car into a gap that just wasn't there! What was Massa supposed to do? Drive into his team-mate?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone place any blame on Hamilton for Spa 2009!

 

[Brogan]

Monza 2010 - Hamilton stuck the nose of his car into a gap that just wasn't there! What was Massa supposed to do? Drive into his team-mate?

In the same way that Webber poked his nose in at Singapore in 2010.
In both cases Hamilton got the blame.
Surely he has to be in the right for one of them, considering he was on the outside for one and the inside for the other?

 

[Porceliamone]

There is the other argument that Hamilton when overtaking is giving the drivers a choice - let me through or have an accident. If drivers stand up to aggressive overtaking manoeuvres, then they're going to end up having contact! Hamilton may get demonised, but he is also not always 100% innocent either!

I agree to an extent but when I say agressive I meant it in terms of "I'm going to overtake you and you know it" rather than threatening "I'm going to hit you trying". I don't believe for one moment that he ever goes into a maneuver thinking "I'm going to have to make contact here and potentially ruin my race".

 

[The Artist.....]

I agree to an extent but when I say agressive I meant it in terms of "I'm going to overtake you and you know it" rather than threatening "I'm going to hit you trying". I don't believe for one moment that he ever goes into a maneuver thinking "I'm going to have to make contact here and potentially ruin my race".

Porceliamone - I know what you mean - and I do not believe for a second that LH goes into any manoeuvre thinking that he's going to have to make contact - However, I do believe that some of his manoeuvres, he does rely on the other driver not just slamming the door on him!

 

[Porceliamone]

Porceliamone - I know what you mean - and I do not believe for a second that LH goes into any manoeuvre thinking that he's going to have to make contact - However, I do believe that some of his manoeuvres, he does rely on the other driver not just slamming the door on him!

And therein lies the problem. Do we want to see drivers racing or do we want to see drivers hanging back because someone turns in on them? I know what I want...

Put it this way, if I was on a normal road and a car pulls up half way or even a third of the way up on me I would never turn in on them - I know I'm going to have a crash if I do so - even at slow speed there's barely any time for them to react and it would be a silly thing to do.

On a racing circuit, if you as a racing driver have allowed that situation to arise in the first place by either positioning your car incorrectly or simply because you are unfortunate enough to not have a fast enough car then do you have the right to turn in on the other driver who, by their own merit, with or without DRS or KERS assistance has gotten themselves close enough to attempt the manoevre?

 

[Brogan]

Maybe that's a good subject for another thread?

Certainly seems worth discussing to me as everyone has an opinion on what is and isn't acceptable, or what the drivers should be doing in those situations.

 

[Andyoak]

Lewis approaches overtaking in the same way as Senna and Schumacher (in his prime) did and it does intimidate other drivers to a greater or lesser extent. The problem is that, as we saw with Schumacher last year, when that intimidation isn't as strong as it has been the other driver will have the confidence to defend more robustly. That can lead to accidents but that is what they are: accidents caused by the Lewis (or whoever) misjudging the other drivers willingness and means of defending.

Button isn't and hasn't shown himself to be intimidated by Lewis and because they normally treat each other with respect on the circuit, and racing each other vigourously, there is no reason to believe that dynamic changed last weekend.

One thing that has been niggling me is that a number of people seem to have overlooked the fact that Button didn't weave but followed the racing line; he may have been slow but he had every right to follow it as the car in front. At no point over that stretch of road was Lewis in front of Button.

And as for the flat tyre thing... it may have been flat but that wheel was not at an angle I'd have considered normal. It seemed a reasonable assumption to make that there was more damage than a flat tyre.

 

[Porceliamone]

Brogan - can you merge the relevent (last few posts) into a new thread? Do I need to start a new one and paste everything?

 

[Andyoak]

I thought there was a general agreement / assumption (whatever) was that your front wheels had to be in front of the defending drivers rear wheels. I know in this instance it was a close call either way but it does seem a pretty fair approach that, if I am correct, generally works.

 

[Brogan]

I thought there was a general agreement / assumption (whatever) was that your front wheels had to be in front of the defending drivers rear wheels.

They were: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2011-canadian-grand-prix-chump-of-the-weekend.2937/page-4#post-57422

Brogan - can you merge the relevent (last few posts) into a new thread? Do I need to start a new one and paste everything?

I think Hamberg already started a thread: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/the-racing-line-and-avoidable-accidents.2962/