New engine suppliers

[Brogan]

Just happened across this article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91107

Former BAR team principal Craig Pollock is to return to Formula 1 in 2013 as the head of a new customer engine supply company.
Pollock has launched PURE, which stands for Propulsion Universelle et Recuperation d'Energie, to provide teams with power-units that comply with the new 1.6-litre four-cylinder turbo engine regulations that come into force that year.

It's not something I had given much though to, but with the regulations changing so drastically, it will be a clean sheet for everyone so we could see lots of new companies vying to be suppliers.

I expect McLaren will take the opportunity to build their own engine, especially considering their Mercedes contract is up soon and Mercedes won't want their works team constantly being beaten by one of their customers.

Do we know yet how it's going to work?
Will the teams be free to choose any engine supplier they like? Or will it be from a pre-approved FIA list?

 

[Fenderman]

A gentle breeze of hope! But ... I wonder ... how tight will be the FIA's prescription? How much scope for innovation?

 

[FB]

I wonder if Mr Pollock will be as successful with this venture as he was with BAR?

I can imagine that the new engine regs will encourage new engine suppliers. There have been lots of rumours about VW, maybe Renault will carry on and, who knows, maybe some of the Korean, Indian and Chinese car makers will get involved.

 

[Fenderman]

Yes, please. Variety ... the spice of life. Wouldn't it be nice if this happens AND they sound different. Must be late, I hink I'm asleep. It's a lovely dream ..... how many sheep was that ... lost count .... zzzzzzzzzz

 

[sportsman]

Pollock has put a great team together in this venture.Jean-Pierre Boudy, was the engineer who designed Renaults first F1 turbo engine.
How it will work in practice as yet I don't think anyone knows.The FIA must have already released the engine technical details, ie bore and stroke,number of valves per cylinder and types of valve train.Also maximum turbo boost allowed etc.
Almost certainly any of the engines will need to homologated and approved by the FIA.Gearbox details must also be revealed as these are crucial in engine design.
Norbert Haug said some time ago in a press conference that Mercedes had already put a lot of development into the new engine formula.
This comment from the report I found rather suprising.

"Todt has been informed and is very supportive, Bernie is fully aware and also supportive – so I will now be participating in the engine meetings. When there is a power train meeting at a grand prix, or whether I will be meeting up with teams to discuss potential contracts in the future – I will be around and about."

 

[LifeW12]

honestly this thing will be the slowest, heaviest and most unreliable heap of crap if it were to be used

 

[Galahad]

Boudy was also responsible for Peugeot's F1 engines...but that's just me being churlish.

The new regulations will provide an opportunity for the mass manufacturers to come back in, depending on how well the regulations fit with their own visions of how future cars will be powered. For the moment, most look to be heading towards small turbos, but there are more full-electric cars coming to market this year and more exotic options seemingly on the horizon.

At this stage it would seem that PURE will probably be competing with Cosworth (who doubtless will build an engine to the 2013 formula) for customers, new engines are always hugely expensive and I'm sure the big teams without in-house capability (Red Bull in particular, possibly McLaren) will look to pair up with a manufacturer. What odds on a Red Bull-VW in 2013?

 

[siffert_fan]

This really would be the ideal time for VW to get involved (if they ever intend to), as turbo 4s are their mainstay. Audi would be a good fit as well, for the same reason.

Does anyone here know about the fuel specification for the engines? Will the exotic "rocket fuels" of the previous turbo era be allowed?

 

[sportsman]

At the moment no one knows.But that would be very unlikely in my opinion.Far more likely that biofuels ie ethanol would be allowed.

 

[Andyoak]

At the risk of repeating myself from elsewhere, this is exciting if it comes off. I would love to see a development towards a small turbo hybrid (KERS) powered formula but hope that the FIA don't strangle innovation with too much legislation. One of the worst things to happen to F1 recently was the halting of engine development; hopefully this will release the shackles...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2011/04/power_play_over_new_f1_rules.html

It appears that Bernie is still speaking with forked tongue but it does keep the arguements and show on the back page. Am I the only one that is getting bored with Bernie's sideshow Bob impressions?

 

[Pyrope]

honestly this thing will be the slowest, heaviest and most unreliable heap of crap if it were to be used

And this coming from someone whose handle is LifeW12??? Pot, meet kettle...

 

[Pyrope]

The projected engine spec for the new Jaguar C-X75 petrol-electric supercar makes for interesting reading. Although the concept made its debut with two small gas turbines providing the motive energy, the press release for the actual road car mentions a small capacity, highly-boosted internal combustion motor. Developed in conjunction with Williams. What price Williams-Jaguar in 2013?

http://www.jaguar.com/ca/en/#/about_jaguar/c-x75

 

[Andyoak]

The projected engine spec for the new Jaguar C-X75 petrol-electric supercar makes for interesting reading. Although the concept made its debut with two small gas turbines providing the motive energy, the press release for the actual road car mentions a small capacity, highly-boosted internal combustion motor. Developed in conjunction with Williams. What price Williams-Jaguar in 2013?

http://www.jaguar.com/ca/en/#/about_jaguar/c-x75

I would love to think so but I don't see Jaguar or a pure Jaguar engine coming back to F1.
However, a Jaguar-Cosworth powered Williams could be a possibility.

I don't want to give up hope on Williams yet... they are tenacious and you don't forget how to be good. But the drivers aren't and their structure seems to be struggling. Next year could be tough too but I'm still holding out hope for 2013.

Sorry, i know the bulk of this is in the wrong thread.

Still... great and interesting developments on the Jag / williams front and good luck to them all.

 

[Fenderman]

If BTCC and Le Mans series can bring in different engine formulas, seems a good idea for F1 to do likewise. After all it is meant ot be the pinnacle of motorsport, isn't it?

 

[Brogan]

Maybe there won't be many new suppliers after all.
Renault has formally requested for the supply limit to be increased from 3 teams to 4.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91319

If that goes ahead then no doubt Ferrari and Mercedes will also be looking to supply other teams.

So McLaren will be on their own with their engine (presumably), with only one team's worth of data to analyse and use for feedback.

 

[Andyoak]

There goes another missed opportunity.
My hopes for a JLR / Williams partnership will now rest on JLR tying up with Cosworth. Still, ever the optimist, I'm sure Cosworth will appreciate any development funding / knowledge that can be gleaned from that project. Likewise it could play into Tata's hands by having a respected combustion engine developer on board.

 

[Pyrope]

Wow, this is suddenly getting complicated. So, in summary, potential engines (rumoured and realistic) are:

1. Mercedes: Almost certainly, and probably quite a good one if past form of the MBHPE/Ilmor crew holds up. Whether the M-B team lasts long enough to run it is another question.
2. Ferrari: Well, they have to really, and once upon a time (though LdM chooses to forget it) racing in F1 on four cylinders was something Ferrari pioneered.
3. Renault: Less certain. Although they do have the history in turbocharged motors where's the motivation? They don't own the F1 team any more, and if it passes wholesale to Group Lotus then even the Renault name will go. A commercial racing engines department is hardly central to Renault-Nissan-Infiniti-Dacia-Samsung's business.
4. PURE: An interesting proposition, and I'll put money on the fact that they've already swiped a few ex-Regie folk, so the motor should be a good one. If not, expect a subeditor's dream, with many "Complete Pollocks"-type headlines on the back pages.
5. Cosworth: Hmm, well they need to keep an oar in F1 to maintain the "halo" effect that supports the rest of their business, but I could see them badging engines for others too. If this F1 spec does eventually evolve into Mosely's "World Engine" then Cossie could be very well placed.
6. McLaren: I just can't see them not taking this opportunity to go it alone. They are definitely moving into Ferrari's niche on the road, so why not the track too? I know they keep saying "no", but what does that really mean in F1? With the MP4-12C (zzz....) just the first of a few planned models, does having their highest profile product powered by someone else make sense?
7. Jaguar/TATA: Very much less certain, but I wouldn't put it past them. The company has never lacked ambition, and they seem to be making a decent go of JLR.

Well, that's just too many, isn't it? And with the possible interest of a Hyundai or SAIC it could get a lot more busy. I'm not so convinced that some of the suppliers will see the need for more than one team (the Merc lump never seemed that slow when just McLaren was signed up), and with modern dyno machines you can replicate pretty much any circuit or driver you like. Simulator data are also perfectly adequate. As most of the engine companies are spun off from the main team the RRA doesn't affect them, so they can run 24/7 and have as many dynos and engineering boffins as they like.

This could get interesting. Maybe...

 

[Galahad]

I suppose the question is whether there is going to be ongoing development through 2013 and onwards, or whether the manufacturers are going to have to produce their best product for a set deadline, after which it is frozen?

Running a customer engine programme with multiple teams makes much more sense under the latter than the former, I'd have thought?

 

[Andyoak]

Nicely summarised Pyrope, but I think we'll see a little more collaboration. The way I see it will be:
Mercedes are a sure thing and can make a commercial case for detuned versions in their road cars.
Ferrari are also a sure thing for historical reasons alone. They are not going to drop out of F1 and they aren't going to be able to change the specification. The whole point of Ferrari is Ferrari chassis and Ferrari engine... they aren't going to use anyone elses.
Renault / PURE have every commercial reason to do an engine as it will fit in very well with their road cars. They have a history of successful engine only involvement in F1 and benefiting from the halo effect. However, it may make sense to have a tie-in with PURE to spread the development costs and keep the money men happy. At the end of the day, they are already making a championship winning engine for the best chassis / designer at the moment and it would be foolish to throw that away today.
Cosworth / JLR makes sense as there will be continuation of knowledge and development from the tie in with Williams. Also, JLR are heavily involved in developing small hybrid engines for both Land Rover and Jaguar; probably reflecting the moves by Mercedes and BMW. I suspect that Williams are the only Cosworth team that are giving genuinely useful development information back and they have the hybrid and manufacturer relationship to give both technical and financial support. It seems a good way for Cosworth and JLR to control costs and gain mutual benefit... and I can hope that Williams can make a come-back.

So that is four engines leaving only...
McLaren are the one option I see as being the weakest. I'm not convinced they can see a use for a detuned F1 engine (as proposed) in their road cars as we think they are going. In many ways the only driving force will be to do a Ferrari but the inertia will be no history of using their own engines in F1; better to use that engine development money on an engine that is purely for their road car program.

I really hope this opportunity isn't wasted with a move to severely restrict the number of engine suppliers and to freeze development once they come on-line. The great hope of this spec has to be a return to engineering development excellence that gives the world small, efficient and hugely powerful engines for the next 10 years. Until proven otherwise I am optimistic that Todt is moving away from a standard spec racing series as envisioned by Mosley.

Well, here's hoping...

 

[Grizzly]

Don't be thinking the new formula will lead to de-tuned F1 engines in road cars, nor anything even resembling one. Some of the technology, maybe, but none of the parts. I guess that's what you probably meant anyway...

Renault / PURE have every commercial reason to do an engine as it will fit in very well with their road cars. They have a history of successful engine only involvement in F1 and benefiting from the halo effect. However, it may make sense to have a tie-in with PURE to spread the development costs and keep the money men happy. At the end of the day, they are already making a championship winning engine for the best chassis / designer at the moment and it would be foolish to throw that away today.

Remember Renault's last walk out? It was at the end of 97 when their engines had utterly dominated F1 for over 5 years. They wanted to walk out at the top of their game and, they did. I have no idea what Renault intend on doing, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are thoroughly evaluating all options for 2013 including, sadly, leaving the sport once more...