McLaren's mid season development woes
- Thread starter MCLS
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landogeorgelewis1
Champion Elect
Mclaren's pace is worrying at the moment.
From a team who had the fastest car at the start of the season, their haven't really captialised on it. Mclaren really should be miles ahead in the championship, but instead they've let others catch up in the developement race and now seem to be the third or even the fourth fastest car on the grid.
Jenson's form is especially worrying as he is not getting the best out of the car. Even going to Lewis's set up in Valencia didn't help him. The team should realize by now that their need to design two seperate cars to suit the driving styles of both Jenson and Lewis. It's pointless design a car to suit one and not the other.
For me Mclaren need to get back in the developement race and start to claw some points back in the championship or else suffer another season saying what ifs.
From a team who had the fastest car at the start of the season, their haven't really captialised on it. Mclaren really should be miles ahead in the championship, but instead they've let others catch up in the developement race and now seem to be the third or even the fourth fastest car on the grid.
Jenson's form is especially worrying as he is not getting the best out of the car. Even going to Lewis's set up in Valencia didn't help him. The team should realize by now that their need to design two seperate cars to suit the driving styles of both Jenson and Lewis. It's pointless design a car to suit one and not the other.
For me Mclaren need to get back in the developement race and start to claw some points back in the championship or else suffer another season saying what ifs.
I'm wondering if the McLaren even was fundamentally the fastest car at the beginning of the season. I've been thinking for a while that maybe they had a march on understanding setup. They were no faster than Ferrari and the Bulls in race conditions in Aus.
At 50.45, Scarbs talks about Charlie Whiting forcing McLaren to change their front splitter after the Chinese GP, which meant "a loss of a few millimetres in front ride height which will affect downforce levels and balance" and so could be a small part of their dip in form since then.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
Good stuff Viscount. I had not heard Scarbs talk about this, but I did elude to this in one of my earlier posts during this thread. My understanding was something along the lines of: "In China, or after China I think to be exact, they had to change their splitter as it was declared illegal. I think they had a clever trick with flexing this and I think this hurt them quite a bit as come Bahrain they were well off the pace. Sure, the temperatures and degradation was part of this, but no doubt this hurt them and also this supposedly hurt Button as it meant he found it harder to heat the front tyres. Mark Hughes eluded to this theory in one of his articles."
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
I don't want to spur another big "Button harming development" argument but it's interesting that now Gary Anderson of the BBC and Mark Hughes of Autosport / Sky have both referred to Button's issues potentially harming McLaren's development. I mean when people talk about it on these forums, with no disrespect to any individuals, it's just generally looked at as people moaning. But when you have 2 highly regarded technical analysts talking about it then people start to listen. Anyway, the latest in this whole saga is an article by Pete Gill on Sky. I'll quote what he said on the matter:-
"In the absence of any other convincing explanation for why they've retreated into a midfield wilderness, one theory worth peddling is that the team took a wrong turn when Button lurched into crisis mode after Bahrain, taking a misguiding lead from a driver whose technical feedback they came to rely upon and implicitly trust last season but whose precise style runs kilter to this year's instability born of the ban on exhaust-blowing diffusers. An unnerving line from Mark Hughes' latest column into the team's ongoing demise is that 'when Button suggested a new direction after Bahrain, the team did not question it'. Since then, driver and team have been racing up a dead end and even in Canada, when Hamilton triumphed, there was a tell-tale clue in Jenson's horror-show that McLaren were slowly becoming undone. Now it seems they've lost their way to the extent of losing all sense of direction."
Full article: http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7884093/Conclusions-from-the-British-GP
"In the absence of any other convincing explanation for why they've retreated into a midfield wilderness, one theory worth peddling is that the team took a wrong turn when Button lurched into crisis mode after Bahrain, taking a misguiding lead from a driver whose technical feedback they came to rely upon and implicitly trust last season but whose precise style runs kilter to this year's instability born of the ban on exhaust-blowing diffusers. An unnerving line from Mark Hughes' latest column into the team's ongoing demise is that 'when Button suggested a new direction after Bahrain, the team did not question it'. Since then, driver and team have been racing up a dead end and even in Canada, when Hamilton triumphed, there was a tell-tale clue in Jenson's horror-show that McLaren were slowly becoming undone. Now it seems they've lost their way to the extent of losing all sense of direction."
Full article: http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7884093/Conclusions-from-the-British-GP
I could almost swear GA is getting a lot of his analysis from this very site. We have a discussion and then after a time his articles pop up looking like an edited best-of. Perhaps it's just a testament to the quality of some of the posts on here that such parallels seem so evident. I've had to defend myself from a lot of flack for peddling these same theories. Thanks for the round up of corroberance.
Maybe the McLaren car is like the Renault of last year.
The Renault came out of the box fast, but they couldn't further develop it as it had already reached it's peak with a certain part (the front facing exhausts).
Maybe it's the same for McLaren, I think you need to cut them some slack, the job isn't as easy as it seems, there could be several reasons why they are underperforming, you never know until your in the exact position of the person or company that you are criticising.
Sometimes minor tweaks helps, and a major upgrades don't work, I've experienced it myself from when I used to race.
Not everything's simple guys.
But even then, McLaren are there own worst enemies.
The Renault came out of the box fast, but they couldn't further develop it as it had already reached it's peak with a certain part (the front facing exhausts).
Maybe it's the same for McLaren, I think you need to cut them some slack, the job isn't as easy as it seems, there could be several reasons why they are underperforming, you never know until your in the exact position of the person or company that you are criticising.
Sometimes minor tweaks helps, and a major upgrades don't work, I've experienced it myself from when I used to race.
Not everything's simple guys.
But even then, McLaren are there own worst enemies.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
Well, something has come out that many of us have long believed, even in previous seasons. Jenson has come out and said:-
"I won't take anything away from the guys driving the Williams and the Saubers but we have a lot of experience in this sport and we feel we are getting the best out of this car now."
"The car doesn't feel bad, so it is amazing to think what the rest of the guys are driving around in. I wonder what would happen if you put another driver in this car - I bet they would get a real shock."
Even in previous years, many on here including myself at times thought that the 2 drivers were flattering the car. I think Hamilton especially with his 1 lap pace and ability to drive around problems can make a car look better than it is in qualifying and then they're both great racers. It's like Jenson says though, if you put someone else in their car right now I wonder where they'd be. I also believe if you had Hamilton in a Williams or Sauber then he'd be faster than in this McLaren. If you had him in a Lotus he'd be dominating.
"I won't take anything away from the guys driving the Williams and the Saubers but we have a lot of experience in this sport and we feel we are getting the best out of this car now."
"The car doesn't feel bad, so it is amazing to think what the rest of the guys are driving around in. I wonder what would happen if you put another driver in this car - I bet they would get a real shock."
Even in previous years, many on here including myself at times thought that the 2 drivers were flattering the car. I think Hamilton especially with his 1 lap pace and ability to drive around problems can make a car look better than it is in qualifying and then they're both great racers. It's like Jenson says though, if you put someone else in their car right now I wonder where they'd be. I also believe if you had Hamilton in a Williams or Sauber then he'd be faster than in this McLaren. If you had him in a Lotus he'd be dominating.
Kewee
Race Winner
Batman......Not sure why Whitmarsh cops so much flack. I know the buck stops at the top but seriously, he doesn't design the cars nor does he drive them. In think he does damn well managing a difficult situation. To suggest things would improve if Ron fired him ignores the fact that things were not exactly rosy under Ron's management. If Ron had handled 2007 differently McLaren would quite possibly have won 3 titles since then rather than just Lewis's in 2008.
There is no doubt that McLaren are struggling... but I will wait to see how they perform at the new Jochenheim 
(RIP the real circuit ) in a week and a half... assuming that it is a normal weekend (dry running)...
(RIP the real circuit ) in a week and a half... assuming that it is a normal weekend (dry running)...
The vaunted "McLaren Development Machine" really took hold in 09 when they started with such a dog that they really had nowhere to go but up. Since then they've been no better than anyone else in improving their car mid-season.
I recall them having big problems with the simulator/wind tunnel data not matching up with the real world data. I'm starting to wonder if they ever got that completely sorted. I mean when you're the only team that doesn't start the year with the "stepped-nose" concept, that should make you think.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
I've just thought of something else with regards to McLaren's development. Remember at the start of the season Vettel was really unhappy with the Red Bull as it was quite nervous and not completely stable. Webber was able to cope with this and was generally faster than Vettel at the first 3 races. At China, Vettel went back to the old exhaust concept, which was clearly smoother and less sensitive to drive compared to the newer solution, however, it was factually proved to be slower. Sure enough come Bahrain, Vettel went back to the new concept, which had a few amendments, and won.
I feel this situation is quite similar to what has happened at McLaren. I think Jenson was struggling to cope with the behavior of the Mclaren, while Hamilton was OK with it. Come Silverstone, Jenson appears OK now and Hamilton maybe not as quick, so they've met in the middle in a way. But the remarks that both of the drivers gave in the race at Silverstone was that the car felt good to drive. So obviously the car feels stable but it has just lost pace. I think this could be exactly the same as the early season Vettel situation where he preferred the feel of the old floor concept, but the new one, although harder to drive, was faster.
What McLaren have done to revert to a more stable car, that is slower, I do not know. But it is a possibility. Maybe they'll sort it in this "crisis meeting".
I feel this situation is quite similar to what has happened at McLaren. I think Jenson was struggling to cope with the behavior of the Mclaren, while Hamilton was OK with it. Come Silverstone, Jenson appears OK now and Hamilton maybe not as quick, so they've met in the middle in a way. But the remarks that both of the drivers gave in the race at Silverstone was that the car felt good to drive. So obviously the car feels stable but it has just lost pace. I think this could be exactly the same as the early season Vettel situation where he preferred the feel of the old floor concept, but the new one, although harder to drive, was faster.
What McLaren have done to revert to a more stable car, that is slower, I do not know. But it is a possibility. Maybe they'll sort it in this "crisis meeting".
I mean when you're the only team that doesn't start the year with the "stepped-nose" concept, that should make you think.
I was just about to post that. Though thinking about it, with the higher front splitter perhaps they thought they could get away with it and to be fair they did start the season fastest. They do have a good exhaust config though that everyone copied.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
Do not fear McLaren fans:- "McLaren says its pitcrew is now hitting target pitstop times" ... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101125
It doesn't matter that they've made the car slow because now they have great pit stops, whooo
It doesn't matter that they've made the car slow because now they have great pit stops, whooo
The concept of a quick car being less easy to drive is not a new one; I can remember Damon Hill, as just one example, making the same sort of analysis with his Williams cars of the 90's. When a car was at its fastest it was relatively unstable and difficult to handle - twitchy, on the edge if you like - and conversely (rather obviously) if it was easier to drive then it was usually also slower.
So yes, maybe the fact that the Mclaren feels 'good to drive' is counting against it.
So yes, maybe the fact that the Mclaren feels 'good to drive' is counting against it.
Il_leone
World Champion
Hmmm it was not long ago that Button was getting praise because they thought it is better for him to the feedback driver because Hamilton is more adaptable
Gary Anderson has been saying that Mclaren should have been observing Button's decline in form a bit more and get to his problem more quickly
THis was distracted by the problems they had sorting out their pitstop woes which they've finally fixed at SIlverstone
However Hamilton's pole in SPain somewhat masked the problems and Mclaren have really truly lost their way because of his 1 lap speed
Canada again was masked because it is mainly long straights which plays to Mclaren's strengths as this was the case at Melbourne, Malaysia and China .
what is worrying is at Silverstone both drivers had different settings and neither were quick
Gary Anderson has been saying that Mclaren should have been observing Button's decline in form a bit more and get to his problem more quickly
THis was distracted by the problems they had sorting out their pitstop woes which they've finally fixed at SIlverstone
However Hamilton's pole in SPain somewhat masked the problems and Mclaren have really truly lost their way because of his 1 lap speed
Canada again was masked because it is mainly long straights which plays to Mclaren's strengths as this was the case at Melbourne, Malaysia and China .
what is worrying is at Silverstone both drivers had different settings and neither were quick
Chad Stewarthill, judging by the endless slides I imagine that the HRT is the best on the grid.
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