McLaren's mid season development woes
- Thread starter MCLS
- Start date
I have mentioned my thoughts on the McLaren thread, but I see this as, firstly, Paddy Lowe is unlikely to say the car is fundamentally flawed anyway, secondly, I do not think that what is in the headline is fully backed up by what is in the document. "You don't look at it and say 'okay, the car is a disaster in terms of its fundamentals," explained Lowe. I would suggest, that this is true. It is not a disaster in terms of fundamentals, as it has won two races, one quite recently. Not to say it is not lagging behind in terms of development though.
Hello.....I'm back briefly and I'm going to weigh in.
IMO The Mclaren has never been the fastest car on the grid. I think they stole a march on set up in Australia and it paid off for them. Lets remember they've never both shown that pace again.
IMO Lewis out performing the car has really been papering over the cracks in the last few Grand Prixs and actually Jenson's performance has been more where the car is. The reason that cam exposed in Silverstone is that instead of a street circuit where Lewis can gain the time back your left with a track that you need to rely on the straight line speed and the car design and it really showed.
Also IMO the result Mclaren got at Silverstone was still better than they deserved. If Perez and Maldo had not taken each other out they would have been about on the same piece of track as Lewis - Perez especially was quick that day. If Kobi hadn't taken out his mechanics he'd have been in front of Jenson and I suspect woould probably have got Lewis in the end. Chuck in the fact that Di Resta went out and he on average finishes a bit up the road from Hulkenberg and Mclaren could have come away with 11th and 14th and frankly they would have deserved it. Thats without me even mentioing Nico Rosberg!
I think we have the Ferrari and Red Bull out the front. I don't think Lotus are too far behind. I'd prob say the Merc was next and Mclaren were running a delicate 5th although both Sauber (if they stop having silly accidents) and Williams (If they got a driver in who took the chances) could very well put in a good argument for that place.
I think Mclaren have been in big dodo for a while but are only just starting to notice.
IMO The Mclaren has never been the fastest car on the grid. I think they stole a march on set up in Australia and it paid off for them. Lets remember they've never both shown that pace again.
IMO Lewis out performing the car has really been papering over the cracks in the last few Grand Prixs and actually Jenson's performance has been more where the car is. The reason that cam exposed in Silverstone is that instead of a street circuit where Lewis can gain the time back your left with a track that you need to rely on the straight line speed and the car design and it really showed.
Also IMO the result Mclaren got at Silverstone was still better than they deserved. If Perez and Maldo had not taken each other out they would have been about on the same piece of track as Lewis - Perez especially was quick that day. If Kobi hadn't taken out his mechanics he'd have been in front of Jenson and I suspect woould probably have got Lewis in the end. Chuck in the fact that Di Resta went out and he on average finishes a bit up the road from Hulkenberg and Mclaren could have come away with 11th and 14th and frankly they would have deserved it. Thats without me even mentioing Nico Rosberg!
I think we have the Ferrari and Red Bull out the front. I don't think Lotus are too far behind. I'd prob say the Merc was next and Mclaren were running a delicate 5th although both Sauber (if they stop having silly accidents) and Williams (If they got a driver in who took the chances) could very well put in a good argument for that place.
I think Mclaren have been in big dodo for a while but are only just starting to notice.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
I'm not so sure that SIlverstone is a track that requires straight line speed - in-fact it has less notable straights than almost all other circuits on the calender. I think what you are trying to say is the high speed corners that Silverstone has and the aerodynamic requirements, that would usually be a full blown test of car performance. Strangely though, this years McLaren is meant to be good around high-speed corners and poor on slow speed corners at circuits that are more "street-like". After all, Lewis was on pole at Barcelona and struggled at Monaco and Valencia. But, I think we're all pretty lost on what exactly this years McLaren is good at now, so whatever way you look at it, it is confusing!
Il_leone
World Champion
I agree with RasputinLives Silverstone Mclaren could have ended up with no points had Perez not been taken out and Kobayashi ran over his crew ( rumours are his seat is under threat)
I have been saying Lewis is driving to his limit and above to wring everything out of the Mclaren to where it should not be
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another way to look at this is to agree with the lines of many that is Gary Anderson, Brundle and Mark Hughes from this week's Autosport in that
Button has shown speed in practice but fails to hook it up at the right moment and therefore leaves himself too much to do on Sunday because he can't get the car to work at the optimal temperature which is a very fine window on this year's Pirelli's and maintain the grip level
There is a case for this and explains why Hamilton has been so much better than him in quali now
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now going back to the beginning of the season when every car had the platypus nose except Mclaren there were whispers despite being aesthetically the best looking car....Mclaren were losing out in aero performance to other teams by not having the nose
Come Spain when they adopted a modified nose they have not understood it properly and been off the pace and inconsistent
Hamilton had pole in Spain and might rue lost points due to team error as the win was there for the taking
Canada is Hamilton's track his record speaks for himself and it is mainly straights so Mercedes engine comes in hand. For Button his whole weekend was compromised losing out on 1 session to fix an oil leak
The other tracks though Mclaren have not been as fast as Red Bull, Ferrari and Renault
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mclaren's were expecting to be closer to the front at Silverstone but got it wrong in quali and race although they suggest that they had planned the car for a wet race.
However they also thought Silverstone is like Barcelona so they should be quick but were not
-------------------
There are rumours circulating that Button is frustrated by all this and the word " Retirement"
is being considered.
Only rumours as it was only mentioned in Mark Hughes article as " R" about the vicious circle he is in where he has no confidence in the car and is suffering
-------------------------------------------------------
It will take a herculean effort to sort out the mess they are in at the moment unless they can pinpoint specifically
I wonder if Pat Fry or Mike Coughlan could have pinpointed the problems sooner for the team if they were still there
I just don;t have faith in Sam Michael
I have been saying Lewis is driving to his limit and above to wring everything out of the Mclaren to where it should not be
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another way to look at this is to agree with the lines of many that is Gary Anderson, Brundle and Mark Hughes from this week's Autosport in that
Button has shown speed in practice but fails to hook it up at the right moment and therefore leaves himself too much to do on Sunday because he can't get the car to work at the optimal temperature which is a very fine window on this year's Pirelli's and maintain the grip level
There is a case for this and explains why Hamilton has been so much better than him in quali now
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now going back to the beginning of the season when every car had the platypus nose except Mclaren there were whispers despite being aesthetically the best looking car....Mclaren were losing out in aero performance to other teams by not having the nose
Come Spain when they adopted a modified nose they have not understood it properly and been off the pace and inconsistent
Hamilton had pole in Spain and might rue lost points due to team error as the win was there for the taking
Canada is Hamilton's track his record speaks for himself and it is mainly straights so Mercedes engine comes in hand. For Button his whole weekend was compromised losing out on 1 session to fix an oil leak
The other tracks though Mclaren have not been as fast as Red Bull, Ferrari and Renault
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mclaren's were expecting to be closer to the front at Silverstone but got it wrong in quali and race although they suggest that they had planned the car for a wet race.
However they also thought Silverstone is like Barcelona so they should be quick but were not
-------------------
There are rumours circulating that Button is frustrated by all this and the word " Retirement"
is being considered.Only rumours as it was only mentioned in Mark Hughes article as " R" about the vicious circle he is in where he has no confidence in the car and is suffering
-------------------------------------------------------
It will take a herculean effort to sort out the mess they are in at the moment unless they can pinpoint specifically
I wonder if Pat Fry or Mike Coughlan could have pinpointed the problems sooner for the team if they were still there
I just don;t have faith in Sam Michael
snowy
Champion Elect
Lewis and his engineer make constant references to making the tyres last and issues regarding tyre conservation on the radio. That is all the evidence I need to scotch Lewis's claims to be wringing the neck of the McLaren and going as quick as possible. The car is either a pile of poo and incapable of conserving its tyres or McLaren simply don't understand the tyres and steadfastly refuse to play to the cars strength. Factoring in the extra pitstop and driving flat out would IMNSHO produce far better results, which oddly enough is exactly what they did in Canada.
They may actually discover that Lewis driving flat out from the get go is actually kinder to the tyres, more appealing to race fans and generates more emotional momentum for the team.
They may actually discover that Lewis driving flat out from the get go is actually kinder to the tyres, more appealing to race fans and generates more emotional momentum for the team.
F1 Shift.net
Points Scorer
To me there is no question the McLaren had the quickest car to start the season, but I think their potential with the car was close to maxed out at the beginning of the season. Ferrari and Red Bull had/have a lot more potential and are able to develop their car longer into the season and it's paying huge dividends for them now, while McLaren seems to be out of ideas. They better hope the newest developments works in Germany or they will need to start working on 2013 full time.
Il_leone
World Champion
I forgot to add I think Mclaren did get away with it in Canada no discredit to Lewis but both Red Bull and Ferrari chanced their arm in trying to do 2 stops and they stayed out too long thinking they could hold off Hamilton when he was carving time out of them
Remember Mclaren had another botched pit stop.. the only team who really made two stops work were Lotus with Grosjean
Some people are pointing back to the platypus nose could be their undoing but then again if Mclaren had won 4 out of the first 5 races we would not be talking about a crisis
Mclaren do seem to have made a lot more mistakes this season and its costing them very dearly
Button's style just simply aint working with the tyres where you need to switch them on immediately then somehow maintain it within a fine window of operating temperature
The pirelli's are different from last year...
going to Hockenheim if there is any section that will hurt them is the slow section where it is more about aero performance.... expect them to be quick in the first part which is mainly straights but lose a chunk of time in the 2nd half of the circuit
Remember Mclaren had another botched pit stop.. the only team who really made two stops work were Lotus with Grosjean
Some people are pointing back to the platypus nose could be their undoing but then again if Mclaren had won 4 out of the first 5 races we would not be talking about a crisis
Mclaren do seem to have made a lot more mistakes this season and its costing them very dearly
Button's style just simply aint working with the tyres where you need to switch them on immediately then somehow maintain it within a fine window of operating temperature
The pirelli's are different from last year...
going to Hockenheim if there is any section that will hurt them is the slow section where it is more about aero performance.... expect them to be quick in the first part which is mainly straights but lose a chunk of time in the 2nd half of the circuit
Too little too late but at least Jenson gets to save some face.
Too late? It's half time.
Dizzi
Podium Finisher
But he has been pretty shocking this year. I know Jenson won the first race but then he seemed to hit a drought & while most of Lewis's problems seem to have come from external sources (mostly McLaren mucking him up) Jenson has toddled round whinging for the last 6 races. Thank goodness he seemed to have found his mojo again yesterday.
Considering the (hopeful) quality of the 'new improved' McLaren is it possible we may see Button & Hamilton on the podium together this year? 1-2?
Considering the (hopeful) quality of the 'new improved' McLaren is it possible we may see Button & Hamilton on the podium together this year? 1-2?
I mentioned this in the McLaren thread on Sunday morning, and it looks this train of thought is gaining steam.
McLaren need to abandon their annual mid-season upgrade strategy. This is a very old school way of doing things and it is simply too little, too late for modern F1 standards. And this is not to mention the fact that in 3 of the last 4 years they have been greeted by seriously wet tracks on Friday that have made it nearly impossible to get to grips with the massive upgrade packages they bring.
FB just posted a link about 3D Printing technology and it noted that Red Bull started bringing two 3D printers to the track last year to create parts overnight and fit them to the cars the next day. This is what it takes to dominate the F1 world today. Not looking towards large upgrade packages months away.
McLaren need to abandon their annual mid-season upgrade strategy. This is a very old school way of doing things and it is simply too little, too late for modern F1 standards. And this is not to mention the fact that in 3 of the last 4 years they have been greeted by seriously wet tracks on Friday that have made it nearly impossible to get to grips with the massive upgrade packages they bring.
FB just posted a link about 3D Printing technology and it noted that Red Bull started bringing two 3D printers to the track last year to create parts overnight and fit them to the cars the next day. This is what it takes to dominate the F1 world today. Not looking towards large upgrade packages months away.
Even if they developed their car faster than their competitors I'm sure they'll find a way to muck it all up. You also have a Team Principal obsessed with integrating two drivers with very divergent driving styles often at the expense of the faster driver and the WDC is not coming to McLaren anytime soon.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
I have to say whilst I understand what you're saying - it's a bit extreme. Sure, if McLaren focused everything on Lewis then im sure he'd get a few more points, but then they'd have no chance of the constructors, much like Ferrari with Massa as a clear number 2. I don't see it that you can have it both ways. I see McLaren's struggles this year as being a severe lack of development. They said themselves they were 2 races behind, so they should have delivered their most recent upgrades at Valencia, then they'd be right there with Ferrari and Red Bull. Their other big problem is just operational errors that have cost Lewis mainly but also JB at times. If they'd maximised what Lewis has been delivering he'd probably be right up there with Alonso.
I think the reason they are behind in development is because they spent the first 4 races designing a new higher nose that everyone had at the start of the first test. They could then only focus on their next big sidepod aero package from this point on. They couldn't start that without knowing the nose worked and so it got delivered 4 races later. Essentially, if they'd of had the stepped nose at the start of the season and more conventional sidepods like they have now, they'd probably have ran away with the season as they now have a car that everyone else started with - so all the other bits are very good, but 2 fundamentals they got badly wrong im afraid. It's likely to cost them both titles this season.
I think extreme is to deduce that the only alternative to integration is to focus all efforts on Lewis only. It is possible to be successful by managing both drivers with greater independence without focusing all efforts on one driver.
This year the emphasis has shifted from a development race to understanding the car’s interaction with the Pirellis. This partly explains the wild variation in performance on similar circuits as the car is increasingly sensitive to small setup changes. All this talk of McLaren suddenly falling behind because of a failure to adequately develop their car is a bit of red herring when the real issues that have handicapped them stem largely from operational errors and a recurring inability to think on their feet. This is not to say that finding performance through car development doesn’t help but 3races ago Hamilton qualified second at Barcelona and you could say was doing alright. When you look at all the failures they’ve encountered all season, the root causes can always be traced back to the issues mentioned above. These were obvious once again last weekend when they decided to send both drivers early in Q3 (nothing wrong with this as a banker lap is always better than nothing). I notice Redbull did a similar strategy but from what I remember, they entered Q3 slightly later than McLaren and with arguably a faster car that’s better on its tyres they had some rubber left to do decent lap times when the track had improved. McLaren had no such luxury - they reacted too late to an improving track after the tyres on both cars were shot and both drivers were going no where. They then only managed to get Jenson (the slower driver in the previous two sessions) past the chequered flag who then went on to register a lap that was less than a tenth faster than the one Hamilton had set under more difficult conditions and on old tyres. Says it all really (see post #76).
Similar threads
- Article
- Article
- Article
