Current McLaren

Arguably one of the big teams in Formula One but lately they don't seem to be able to get the basics right.
Some of their strategy and decisions in the last few years has left more than a few observers scratching their heads.

Just a few for starters:

• Leaving Kimi out on a badly flat-spotted tyre, resulting in it exploding on the last lap.
• Leaving Hamilton out on tyres so badly worn they were down to the canvas; Bridgestone themselves demanded that McLaren bring him in and McLaren refused, keeping him out for a few more laps. That decision arguably cost Hamilton the first rookie WDC and is one which will haunt him and McLaren for the rest of their days.
• Not sending Button and Hamilton out to get banker laps in during Q1.
• Sending Hamilton out on used tyres in Q3, with rain forecast, meaning it would be impossible to set a fast lap time on his second attempt on new tyres.

Their major updates seem to send them further down the grid, instead of challenging for pole positions and wins. As the season progresses they tend to get worse before getting better, by which time it is generally too late.

It's often said of them "write them off at your peril", but is this necessarily true?

The last time they won the WCC was in 1998 and their last WDC was 2008, before that 1999.
Their days of regularly winning championships seem to be well and truly behind them.

It's all well and good coming up with reasons why they haven't won championships.
The fact remains though, they have won just one WDC in the last 12 years.

So where to now for McLaren?

(I wrote this in rather a hurry so I will flesh it out when I have more time.)

 

[Il_leone]

I think as much as it painful for Mclaren they cannot bail out because I think that would seriously finish them off for good because they are not getting sponsors to the team at the moment . As pointed by Eddie Jordan a few races back the whole team is very costly to run. The only money they will get is the royalty payment for their years of service in F1 which is only second to Ferrari under the current Concorde Agreement. Even then that is only a snip of the budget they need to run the team each season.

I think for Ron Dennis, and Alonso its all or nothing for their own reasons. I just wonder what sort of relationship Alonso has with the Honda engineers given Senna use to really work the Honda guys to the limit but they loved him for it much to chagrin of Prost

 

[Kewee]

teabagyokel......Of course your right, a breakup is always a danger with any partnership but for both McLaren and Honda it would be a very public show of failure which neither can afford. For the sake of both companies success is essential. Failure really isn't an option, the outcome would be disastrous for both companies and would be damaging way beyond Formula One.

 

[Titch]

However without advertising revenue, Honda must be ploughing in huge amounts of money to keep the team on the track. How long will they be prepared to do that?

 

[The Artist.....]

Kewee - I can't say I agree; Honda is no longer the giant it was in the 1980s; we saw that on their last foray into F1 - it doesn't have the same sales level, nor does it have the same engineering respect! I think that the fact that Honda weren't running endless different specifications of new generation F1 engines around Suzuka in a mule car shows that they didn't really have the commitment to hit the ground running. Given the current rules on engine tokens, the only way to have a competitive engine is to build one from the outset! Even if Honda make massive gains over the winter - the other teams will also be able to make similar gains!

 

[Kewee]

The Artist..... One big reason Honda's last foray in F1 failed was not due to any technical failings but more due to the way they managed the team. Running the team from Japan by a committee rather than having a team principle on site was always going to fail. I measure Honda by their past success with bikes and cars and of course present ongoing success powering Indycar. They may not have the same success in the UK as they have in the past but they're still a major player in other markets, especially the US. I still believe they'll succeed hugely but not in half a season.

 

[Incubus]

The Artist..... Absolutely spot-on. Honda's position not only in F1 but in the automotive industry and the japanese economic model in general at the time weren't just in the positions of major players, they were dominent.

It seems like a long time ago now but we have to remember things in their context. It was the mid-to-late eighties, and people in the car industry at the time in Europe were afraid of the "Yellow Peril", what seemed like the unstoppable rise of the wave of japanese dominance that would put Europe's motor industry in a weak position.

I remember reading an interview of Prost 1987 when he returned from the McLaren delegation party that had visited Honda's motorsport headquarters in Japan once McLaren finally secured the Honda engine for the following year. He claimed to have "instantly understood" why McLaren had been beaten that year as soon as he entered the complex. Engines were being tested night and day on the bench and they were something like half-a-dozen V6 turbos being tested when he visited, all with diferent specs and none of which would ever even be used on the track. There was simply no way at the time anybody, not even traditional giant manufacturers in Europe, could compete with that kind of seemingly endless level of resources and expenditure.

Of course the economic situation in Japan as well as in F1 is today very different to what it was in them days and not just for Honda, which is why comparisons betwen then and now are mostly irrelevant. It was entirely different ball-game back then and a context from an era that isn't about to be repeated.

 

[Il_leone]

This year actually Honda are not having a great time in premier class of motorsport

In MotoGP having looked so dominant last season with Marc Marquez on a Honda they are having real battle on their hands as their bike is this year being out developed by Yamaha

In F1 - we now they have been a real embarrassment. I thought that Honda's car and bike division are two separate lines of operation. I don't know if this is causing resource issue and creating complexities and disruption within HOnda

By the time the Japanese Grand Prix is around I anticipate Honda to at least get a half decent engine because they dont want to poor show in their home race

 

[The Artist.....]

By the time the Japanese Grand Prix is around I anticipate Honda to at least get a half decent engine because they dont want to poor show in their home race

Given the rules regarding tokens, unless they have a decent engine come this weekend, then they won't have a decent engine for the rest of the season; I also wonder what will happen if one of the other manufacturers spend some of their tokens to jump ahead even further!

 

[Kewee]

I also wonder what will happen if one of the other manufacturers spend some of their tokens to jump ahead even further!

The further advanced in development a car is the more difficult it becomes to make significant steps forward. Honda have been so far back it is still possible for them to make huge gains which is why it will be possible for them to reduce the gap to the leading teams. Where Mercedes may gain tenths Honda can gain seconds if their development program succeeds.

 

[The Artist.....]

I have heard that argument many times Kewee about F1, yet I've rarely seen it.

 

[Kewee]

The Artist..... It's absolutely true and logical. Maybe 40 years of following F1 makes it a little easier to for me to witness gains like that. To be honest the same applies to virtually every form of motorsport.

 

[RasputinLives]

Yes because you are the most experienced watcher of F1 ever and therefore know betetr than everyone here

 

[The Artist.....]

The Artist..... It's absolutely true and logical. Maybe 40 years of following F1 makes it a little easier to for me to witness gains like that. To be honest the same applies to virtually every form of motorsport.

What an arrogant post.

 

[Kewee]

Oh dear how peoples imagination run riot. My comments had nothing to do with arrogance and that was not intended. I was simply stating I've been enjoying F1 for a long time as have many other people and have seen huge gains made, sometimes unexpectedly during those years.
My statement was based on observations many will have witnessed. It has always been true that the further into a development cycle a team reaches the smaller the gains they're able to make. Honda are so far off the pace at present they will be able to make far greater gains as their understanding of their car grows.

Yes because you are the most experienced watcher of F1 ever and therefore know betetr than everyone here

I don't recall even suggesting I was more experienced than anyone else.

Not sure why such a simple posting has rubbed people up the wrong way, I'm sure someone will tell me.

 

[RasputinLives]

Do you know how long any of the rest of us have been watching F1? You have a different view to someone and thats ok but you can't suggest your view is more valid because you've been 'watching it longer' and not think its going to annoy people Kewee.

If thats not what you meant I'm afraid thats how it came across. Like a parent saying 'well when you've watched it as long as I have then you'll understand'.

not cool Kewee

 

[Kewee]

RasputinLives ...... Ras I realised I had been misunderstood which is why I clarified my statement in my last posting by saying I had been enjoying F1 for a long time "as have many other people". Even in my original posting I simply said I had been watching F1 for 40 years, I was not intending to imply others haven't been watching as long. As you know Ras forums give us the chance to share different opinions. A different view seems to rile some. I wasn't suggesting my opinions are more valid than anyone else's just stating that the more seasons you've followed the more likely you will have seen gains made at different times in the sports history. I honestly didn't think my posting would cause such a problem otherwise I would have been more careful with my turn of phrase. We've been chatting for a long time now and most of the time we've been able to rise above that, even though we often view things differently. Cheers Ras...

 

[Titch]

As an observer of this conversation, I could throw in my twopence worth, but it would only inflame the situation. However it would serve everyone well, if they read their posts a few times before they hit the button and posted, just to see how it might appear to others.

 

[Kewee]

Which is why I made the effort to explain myself in my last two postings when I realised I had been misunderstood.

 

[Kewee]

I have heard that argument many times Kewee about F1, yet I've rarely seen it.

Our disagreement seems to have dragged this discussion off track somewhat. To return our discussion to normality, the last time a team was unable to retain their advantage by being unable to develop an already beautifully designed car was Brawn. Jenson very nearly lost the title when Brawn's main competitors closed the gap and some were actually quicker during the latter part of the season.

 

[RasputinLives]

Wasn;t that to do with the fact that Brawn just had no money to develop the car whatsoever thought?