Martin Whitmarsh witch hunt

Who will be McLaren Team principal next season?


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Comparing different epochs is pointless

MW inherited a team that would have won the WDC and possibly the WCC but for the fact that a driver could not handle getting beaten by a rookie, if Button had been in Alonsos place, MW would be proclaimed a genius

That team has possibly the best engines in F1 and fantastic technical resources

That team has retreated since

Key staff have left, Lewis is walking into the garage of rival teams, the British media ridicule the team after it's home race, and now we hear of a brewing revolt amongst the teams remaining engineers?

It can't do to look towards the TP for answers though, he is in line to win the top prize at Crufts
 
MW inherited a team that would have won the WDC and possibly the WCC but for the fact that a driver could not handle getting beaten by a rookie, if Button had been in Alonsos place, MW would be proclaimed a genius

errmm...no.

Whitmarsh inherited a team which had just had its public reputation tarnished through Spy scandals, driver scandals and, just immediatly before he became team principal, the lie scandal. The former Team Principal had been forced out - one of its senior members had taken a bullet for the team and been forced out, its young super star driver had just had his first major knock and reputation tarnished and was talking to Bernie about quitting F1 and to top it all the car that had been built for 2009 was the worst in the field. Within 9 races he'd turned that shopping trolly into a winning car.

All of this started back when Button beat Hamilton in Australia and Whitmarsh looked happy. You talk about Alonso not being able to cope with being beaten by a rookie. I think there are a certain cross section of Lewis's fans that can't cope with him being beaten by anyone and have to find a reason.
 
Talk about witch hunt? All I see on this thread is one person going to all possible lengths to attack and diminish Martin Whitmarsh's achievements and credibility completely against the tide of common and rational thinking. All the facts and all the statistics point towards McLaren and Whitmarsh doing a decent job. The only thing making them look bad on the whole is Red Bull's current ability to make themselves look good.
 
Ron was always going to be succeeded, if MW had been ready he would have already replaced Ron

MW was already responsible for a huge amount of the team's day to day operation, and Ron was decreasing his involvement. My money would have been on Ron leaving at the end of the year anyway, so to suggest that a 40-something man who had spent most of his adult life in management (and a significant portion of that in F1 management) was some wort of wet-behind-the-ears rookie is absurd.

F duct was great to reduce drag and increase top speed, fantastic gadget for a car lacking downforce in corners, how easy was it for others to copy and where is this innovation now?

So you are deriding an innovative "gadget" for doing its job perfectly? It was not at all easy for other teams to copy as, to implement it properly, they would have had to homologate entirely new monocoques half way through a season. They didn't do this and we were left with the spectacle of Alonso trying to control his car by telepathy alone, as he had to take both hands off the wheel to use the Ferrari duct. That sort of innovation is exactly what F1 engineers love; the sort that other teams can't turn around and reverse engineer in a week or two. As for the car lacking downforce, you could equally argue that Newey's car had too much drag in a straight line in comparison to the McLaren, yet you don't pick him (or Christian Horner) up on this...

Yes RBR are good, Mclaren were second and chasing but are falling back and are under attack from Merc

That would be the same Mercedes that were over half a second slower in qualifying in Valencia, and were outqualified by Force India and Sauber at Silverstone then? Hmm... Woking must be quaking in their race boots. The ebb and flow of an F1 season is all part and parcel of the sport, not everyone can improve relative to the rest all the time. You have to look over a period of a number of races, and if you do that you'll see that the Red Bull-McLaren gap is pretty stable. Sure, Ferrari seem to have leap-frogged McLaren in the last couple of races, but then they have just significantly upgraded their car such that Mark Hughes reckons nothing at the back end is the same as before. Perhaps McLaren also have half a new car to play with after the summer break? Who knows.

The mistakes and bad decisions are mounting up and are more clues to the teams changing status

Funny how few of the bad decisions are affecting Jenson. As for mistakes, the wheel gun incident could have happened to anyone, and Red Bull even managed to put a completely wrong set of tyres onto Seb's car in Monaco. Yet again, though, your calls for Christian Horner's head on a platter are remarkable by their absence.

Conditioning your best driver like a dog, as an experiment, to be knocked off his pedestal, is mindboggling

Using complex psychology is absolutely part and parcel of a manager's job, and reacting to two very different personalities with the same response would be plain dim. As for the second half of that sentence, where on Earth do you get the idea that MW wants Lewis knocked off his pedestal? What I see is a thoughtful manager gently reminding a headstrong driver that what he is actually standing on is a pedestal made of the hard work and effort of the rest of the team, and the height advantage he enjoys isn't because he has miraculously learned to fly.

The reshuffling that happened when Button arrived looked like trying to optimise by creating a process where the car could be designed around a generic driver amalgamation of both. Understandable if ones going to Crufts I guess

As the car's design process was already many months down the line, and in fact most teams would already have started constructing test monocoques by the time Jenson signed for McLaren, this comment is just tosh.

Yes he has changed a lot, what's working in this touchy feely new McLaren? Apart from a Lewis and Jenson love in?

As RasputinLives has already pointed out. They are second in the Championship, both their drivers are in the top 5 (and only three points off third), and they have won two races this season in the face of a hugely quick opposition car. When you sit down and think rationally it is clear that Whitmarsh is doing a pretty good job. The only folk who don't think so are those who need to find an excuse for Lewis and the red tops who want to sell looseleaf toilet paper.
 
Talk about witch hunt? All I see on this thread is one person going to all possible lengths to attack and diminish Martin Whitmarsh's achievements and credibility

I am starting to see a parallel witch hunt against anyone expressing reservations about Whitmarsh...

completely against the tide of common and rational thinking.

Your opinion, and one you share with a number of others, but folks, please respect the right of others to have alternative viewpoints?

All the facts and all the statistics point towards McLaren and Whitmarsh doing a decent job.

It's all relative, but is second really good enough? If not, then it is fair for supporters to debate why.

The only thing making them look bad on the whole is Red Bull's current ability to make themselves look good.

One of the things, yes, but mistakes in qualifying, in the pits, on design and with the fia, losing regulations that favoured them. I said way back on this thread that I would shut up, but I can't stand back and let you single out someone who disagrees as wrong by default.
 
All the teams have made mistakes this year, but McLaren less than most. Red Bull's mistakes have been masked by the fact that they can afford them. I talk about these two teams because the other 10 on the grid seem to have been largely ignored. I am a McLaren fan, and the team has my applause for putting at least some sort of a dent into Red Bull's seemingly unassailable advantage. Big kudos to Ferrari for also having achieved this. The biggest props obviously go to Red Bull at the moment for the car they have produced. As a McLaren supporter I hope they can up the fight, but we have to remember that until sillverstone they've been the only real contenders. Of course second isn't good enough, but that's competition. They are beating ten teams at this point and are getting beaten by one. Fair play to them, I say.
 
So true

Now I'm starting to see a witch hunt by those who are claiming that there is a witch hunt for the people who are witch hunting Martin Whitmarsh! its a never ending burning session!

He turned me into a toad! ...... I got better though.

Rather than accusing everyone of witch hunting everyone and grabbing torches and hanging people by ropes can't we all agree to disagree. I under no illusion that I'm going to change anyone's opinion on this front. If you want Whitmarsh out then you want Whitmarsh out - t'is your choice. All I've done is state facts and argued my point. I don't want to burn anyone at the stake.

We're all adults aren't we?
 
Now I'm starting to see a witch hunt by those who are claiming that there is a witch hunt for the people who are witch hunting Martin Whitmarsh! its a never ending burning session!

He turned me into a toad! ...... I got better though.

Rather than accusing everyone of witch hunting everyone and grabbing torches and hanging people by ropes can't we all agree to disagree. I under no illusion that I'm going to change anyone's opinion on this front. If you want Whitmarsh out then you want Whitmarsh out - t'is your choice. All I've done is state facts and argued my point. I don't want to burn anyone at the stake.

We're all adults aren't we?

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Too bloody right. The only witch hunt on here are from those blaming Whitmarsh for things like Button's wheel nut going astray (I mean, seriously...).
Those reasonable enough to counter that by pointing out the absurdity of blaming Whitmarsh for something like that are not witch-hunting anyone, they are simply pointing out the bleedin' obvious. It just so happens they are, thankfuly for sanity's sake,, in the majority.
 
I've been watching the various discussions on here and there does appear to be some bias from different contributors. Going right back to the original post, no Martin Whitwarsh will not be replaced esepcially given that the "source" for this story is that tawdry, facist rag the Daily Mail (sorry, my bias coming in to play but what an awful "news" paper). Post the British GP if a British driver didn't win it the tabloid press was always going to gun for someone and this time they've chosen Whitmarsh.

From what I have seen of Ron Dennis over the years he is not one to be swayed by the opinions of others. In fact, quite the contrary, the more pressure that is put on him to do something the less likely he is to do it. Mosely wanted Dennis out at McLaren, RD hung about in Mosely was deposed and then stepped down with some dignity. Whitmarsh is Ron's man and I don't believe Dennis is the sort of person given to knee jerk reactions.

Mclaren aren't as good as Red Bull, but then neither are the rest of the grid. It's only a matter of time before the immense resource at Woking starts to drag the cars further foward but as all of the rest of the grid is feeding on the crumbs (or should that be drinking the dregs from the can?) Red Bull leave behind McLaren aren't doing to bad. One bad race does not a bad season make.

BTW - if RD wants to blame anyone for McLaren's current position he only has to look in the mirror. If he hadn't create the environment that made Adrian Newey want to leave we would all be "celebrating" multiple titles for Vodaphone Mclaren Mercedes.

One final question, and maybe a little off topic, isn't it great to see a team other than Ferrari or Mclaren waltzing away with the various titles, or is that just me?
 
One final question, and maybe a little off topic, isn't it great to see a team other than Ferrari or Mclaren waltzing away with the various titles, or is that just me?
Definately good but can it be HRT's turn next year with Bruno back behind the wheel... ROFL?
 
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As many contributors on this subject do not seem willing or able to discuss the obvious smoke and the likely location of the contributing fire, I will withdraw leaving only irrefutable evidence of the reasons for the OP

3 statements from MW, in chronological order from 2009 till 2011, here's the kicker, all before Silverstone 2011

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/154102/1/whitmarsh_mclaren_wont_make_same_mistake_again_in_f1_2010.html

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/336423/Whitmarsh_looks_to_iron_out_McLaren_mistakes/

http://www.thesportcafe.com/2011/05/whitmarsh-rues-mclaren-mistakes-bbc-sport/
 
As many contributors on this subject do not seem willing or able to discuss the obvious smoke and the likely location of the contributing fire, I will withdraw leaving only irrefutable evidence of the reasons for the OP

3 statements from MW, in chronological order from 2009 till 2011, here's the kicker, all before Silverstone 2011

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/154102/1/whitmarsh_mclaren_wont_make_same_mistake_again_in_f1_2010.html

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/336423/Whitmarsh_looks_to_iron_out_McLaren_mistakes/

http://www.thesportcafe.com/2011/05/whitmarsh-rues-mclaren-mistakes-bbc-sport/

The reason that the title of these articles all have Whitmarsh's name in them are because he is the face of the team and it's his job to speak to the media about such things. Just as it is, Christian Horner's and Stefano Domenicali's. If I could be bothered I could find you just as many articles about the many mistakes of the other leading teams with admissions of team failure from the mouths of Martin Whitmarsh's counterparts. The only reason that you are not having a go at either of them is because Lewis Hamilton does not drive one of thier cars.

Your evidence is most certainly refutable and the very fact that you say it is not contradicts your own statement of peoples inability for open discussion.

You've made your mind up and you've said all you need to say. I'll agree to disagree if it's all the same.
 
ermm what are those articles suppose to show?

in the first one Whitmarsh says he won't let mclaren come to the grid with an uncompetitve car at the start of the season again - which he hasn't

the second one is him saying they could do better on strategy and need to iron out problems - this was just before China which I think you'll agree they got their strategy bob on.

and the third one is him saying they should have done better in Turkey - which is true they should have.

I can't see what this is suppose to prove to me? Are you suggesting as Martin Whitmarsh has said he's going to work hard to make sure Mclaren stop making so many tactical errors that from now on if they do make tactical errors its Whitmarsh's fault for not having fixed it? You are aware that Mclaren are a team unit right? If you had an employee that made an error on his figures so you took him in the office, told him to improve, re-trained him on the figures and then he went back out on the floor and made a different mistake concerning something like health and safety are you saying that would be your fault for not fixing the issue? It all seems very odd.

I'm not being difficult here - I really don't understand what your issue is. Both Red Bull and Ferrari have made more tactical or pit stop errors than Mclaren. Mclaren rebuilt there car completely in a 2 week period to avoid a disastorous start to the season and until the British GP were the only team to have come near toppling the might of Red Bull. I really just don't get the issue.

is it me being thick?
 
As many contributors on this subject do not seem willing or able to discuss the obvious smoke and the likely location of the contributing fire, I will withdraw leaving only irrefutable evidence of the reasons for the OP

3 statements from MW, in chronological order from 2009 till 2011, here's the kicker, all before Silverstone 2011

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/154102/1/whitmarsh_mclaren_wont_make_same_mistake_again_in_f1_2010.html

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/336423/Whitmarsh_looks_to_iron_out_McLaren_mistakes/

http://www.thesportcafe.com/2011/05/whitmarsh-rues-mclaren-mistakes-bbc-sport/

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"irrefutable evidence"??
I read through all three links and I can't see one single irrefutable evidence of anything. On the first link Whitmarsh vowed to avoid a repet of 2009, s design mistakes and indeed whatever design mistakes haven't been made again since. It just so happens that Red Bull have had the faster car for three years thanks to an ex-McLaren employee who left DURING DENNIS'S TIME IN CHARGE.

Hamilton has he made quite a few mistakes this season. According to your logic he should resign too then, tight?

Incidentally and most damning of all as regards to your first link, whatever design mistakes were made in 2009, they were made under Ron Dennis's time in charge...

Irrefutable indeed.
 
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