Martin Whitmarsh witch hunt

[RasputinLives]

I dont think anyone has suggested that either CTA members are above anyone else or that they are not part of the 'rabble' as I coined in my post. The context of the word rabble is not intended to be in any way derogatory. I think you may have misinterpreted.

The main point I was trying to make was there was talk of Whitmarsh being brought down by the rabble as being as we are the rabble this poll cleary shows we're not at that stage yet.

I'm sure no one meant rabble in a derogatory fashion I just get a bit uneasy when people start to talk about 'the masses' having a different opinion to themselves which re-reading your post again Ninja I see you weren't but was making my point.

 

[Quintessentially]

I wouldn't ever claim anyone started watching F1 in a particular year, but its not even a case of short memories in my book. McLaren haven't won a WCC since 1998, and Ron was team principal for 2007, a year in which it was management and not design which failed.

That was clearly a cheap shot at certain sections of Hamilton's fans ( re-2007) and a needless cheap shot as you suggest. Ron was the boss in 2007 and it was arguably poor driver management that contributed directly to McLaren losing the constructors. I think Whitmarsh's critics generally believe his culpability for McLaren's failures lies elsewhere within the management structure.

 

[Quintessentially]

The poll asks not if Whitmarsh is doing a good job but who is most likely to be boss next year

Correct. It should also not be assumed that those who have voted for Whimarsh automatically believe he is doing a good job. The chances of Whitmarsh being replaced at the end of the season are slim, whether you think he's doing a good job or not, and some may have voted accotdingly.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Someone with pre 2007 knowledge mentioned Frank Williams re candidates for witchhunts

It could be argued that Frank has weakened Williams by autocratic management, however forums have not buzzed with Williams fans calling for his head
Why not? because like Ron he built the team up to the top table and is therefore proven. Everyone makes mistakes, no team can win every year

Whitmarsh is boss by default, the only alternative after Max whipped himself into a frenzy over Ron and Mclaren. Every Mclaren fan has seen MW behind Ron, in charge of young drivers etc etc. MW did not ever look like Mclarens great boss waiting in the wings for the job, a job that requires more than organisational skills, a job more for an entrepreneurial visionary than a business manager

And since he has had the job it is obvious to many that McLaren are not the cutting edge any more and not going anywhere either. They are now just another team that do things properly by the F1 team boss manual.

His treatment of Lewis and Jenson, his demeanour after certain races, his PR handling of updates and his handling of other teams questionable performance advantages are all mounting up

There is no smoke without fire even for the daily fail

 

[Slyboogy]

A bit harsh on Whitmarsh....

Frank Williams is on a definite decline, not sure he is the boss anymore either, is it not Adam Parr? Or does he do the financial stuff?

Ron Dennis as proven as he was, can't say he had much success in the 20 odd years, anyone running a big team could have easily matched his championship figures, and if his management skills were good, he could have kept two competitive drivers on several occasions and won many more titles.

As a few above that have mentioned, Ron Dennis isn't good at handling two competitive drivers, right now Hamilton and Button get on so well, and Martin Whitmarsh is the boss currently.

Give Whitmarsh 5-10 years before you can judge, he came in at a bad time for McLaren, and he has only had 2 and half seasons, and isn't doing too badly...

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

The respondents could all think that he is terrible but also understand that he can't be replaced before next year

They could equally all think that he is great but also understand that he might be ousted due to the clamour of the rabble.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I note that 38 people voted. I actually haven't even voted.

38 people. Hmmm. How many attended the British Grand Prix at Silverstone last Sunday?

1 person voted for Briatore!

Main point is that a few people don't see Whitmarsh as boss next year. 8 people, I believe.

 

[Quintessentially]

I don't think you can say the Hamilton-Jenson combo is as competitive as Hamilton-Alonso. The personalities are also different thus making any comparison futile. Would MW have handled things better? Probably, but contrary to popular belief you cannot treat two drivers equally in F1.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The respondents could all think that he is terrible but also understand that he can't be replaced before next year

I think that he is quite good but that he could be replaced next year due to pressure from those looking for someone to blame. I think McLaren are doing relatively well under Martin Whitmarsh. Just not as well as Red Bull, but that's competition.

 

[Brogan]

The influence of the rabble is largely dependent on who the rabble-rousers are.

 

[jez101]

The influence of the rabble is largely dependent on who the rabble-rousers are.

I tried to raise a rabble earlier in this thread, but failed miserably !

 

[teabagyokel]

Ron Dennis as proven as he was, can't say he had much success in the 20 odd years, anyone running a big team could have easily matched his championship figures.

Are those the 20 years that Ferrari won sod all that you're talking about there?

There can only be one winner, not being that team doesn't make you an automatic failure.

And since he has had the job it is obvious to many that McLaren are not the cutting edge any more and not going anywhere either. They are now just another team that do things properly by the F1 team boss manual.

Are you comparing this to 2001-06? Because they were darker days for the silver cars than the last couple of years!

There is no smoke without fire even for the daily fail

I wouldn't trust journalists to hold a penny for me.

 

[sobriety]

There can only be one winner, not being that team doesn't make you an automatic failure.

Although to quote Stirling Moss 'You show me a man who came second and I'll show you a loser'

 

[Road of Bones]

Although to quote Stirling Moss 'You show me a man who came second and I'll show you a loser'

I think it was more along the lines of "show me a man who's happy to come second, and I'll show you a loser". The extra word changes the complexion of the quote, particularly in this context.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Whitmarsh seems happy just to be a TP that employed a driver that didn't embarrass him. He understands that not everyone can win, at least he has a harmonious outfit and as long as they don't come last, it's a job guv

 

[Pyrope]

Whitmarsh is boss by default, the only alternative after Max whipped himself into a frenzy over Ron and Mclaren. Every Mclaren fan has seen MW behind Ron, in charge of young drivers etc etc. MW did not ever look like Mclarens great boss waiting in the wings for the job, a job that requires more than organisational skills, a job more for an entrepreneurial visionary than a business manager

And since he has had the job it is obvious to many that McLaren are not the cutting edge any more and not going anywhere either. They are now just another team that do things properly by the F1 team boss manual.

That just isn't true. He was being groomed to take over from the Ronster for years, and was given a thorough background in the racing and business sides of McLaren to back that up. The timing of the handover may have been decided for them, but the outcome was always going to be the one we have now. As for McLaren not being cutting edge... erm... F-duct mean anything to you? Possibly the most effective and elegant technical solution we've had in a good few years. Considering the overwhelming superiority of the RBR cars McLaren have done very well to win two races, on merit, so far this year. When one team manages to perfect a car, bringing everything together into a harmonious whole, it is very difficult for other teams to haul them in. Just look at the Williams domination following the FW14B. It wasn't really until 1998 that their car slipped from being the gold standard, and that was only following the loss of Newey.

You have to say that Frymarsh #1 is doing a very good job at keeping the Button and Hamilton partnership stable, and his different responses to the drivers' performances very closely reflects their different personalities. When Jenson does well he's effusive and jocular and praises Button, knowing that what Jenson lacks is the aggressive edge, so he tries to bring that out. When Lewis does well he's quick to emphasise the team performance, knowing that Hamilton is a little prone to believing that he is the principal factor in any good performance and that when he fails it's the team's fault, so MW tries to curb that. It looks to me, cynical though this may sound, like a man with a thorough understanding of dog training using the same techniques on humans.

There are certainly areas that need changing, and so Whitmarsh is changing them. This was the last year of the two parallel design team approach, so in future McLaren ought to be able to benefit from the same incremental development that RBR have employed. Who implemented that system? Ron. Who removed it? Whitmarsh. He's clearly a very able and talented manager, and one not afraid to make bold choices, and I find all this sniping a little odd as it clearly shows that folk aren't really looking under the skin of what's happening, and are just pontificating from the hip.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

That just isn't true. He was being groomed to take over from the Ronster for years, snip/
As for McLaren not being cutting edge... erm... F-duct mean anything to you?
Possibly the most effective and elegant technical solution we've had in a good few years.
Snip/

Considering the overwhelming superiority of the RBR cars McLaren have done very well to win two races, on merit,
Snip/
It looks to me, cynical though this may sound, like a man with a thorough understanding of dog training using the same techniques on humans.
Snip/
and I find all this sniping a little odd as it clearly shows that folk aren't really looking under the skin of what's happening, and are just pontificating from the hip.

Ron was always going to be succeeded, if MW had been ready he would have already replaced Ron

F duct was great to reduce drag and increase top speed, fantastic gadget for a car lacking downforce in corners, how easy was it for others to copy and where is this innovation now?

Yes RBR are good, Mclaren were second and chasing but are falling back and are under attack from Merc

The mistakes and bad decisions are mounting up and are more clues to the teams changing status

Conditioning your best driver like a dog, as an experiment, to be knocked off his pedestal, is mindboggling

The reshuffling that happened when Button arrived looked like trying to optimise by creating a process where the car could be designed around a generic driver amalgamation of both. Understandable if ones going to Crufts I guess

Yes he has changed a lot, what's working in this touchy feely new McLaren? Apart from a Lewis and Jenson love in?

 

[teabagyokel]

F duct was great to reduce drag and increase top speed, fantastic gadget for a car lacking downforce in corners, how easy was it for others to copy and where is this innovation now?

It was very difficult for others to copy, because none of them ever came up with one quite as good as McLarens. And where is it now? It was banned because it was effective.

Yes RBR are good, Mclaren were second and chasing but are falling back and are under attack from Merc

Rosberg jumped Button off the line in Valencia and was summarily dispatched in 5 laps and finished half a minute down. Again, at Silverstone, he finished half a minute down on the McLaren. Mercedes aren't so much besieging McLaren as nowhere near!

Conditioning your best driver like a dog, as an experiment, to be knocked off his pedestal, is mindboggling

That is called management.

Yes he has changed a lot, what's working in this touchy feely new McLaren? Apart from a Lewis and Jenson love in?

Well, a Lewis and Jenson love in...! That is, they lost both 2007 titles and nearly got thrown out of 2008 as a direct consequence of mismanagement of drivers causing one of their drivers to attempt to blackmail the team for the type of cheating that all of the teams no doubt engage in from time to time. McLaren finished last in the 2007 WCC with the best car. Ahh, the good old days...!

 

[Cookinflatsix]

That is called management.

Maybe if you run the local Kwik Fit shop

Results say it all, F Duct is no longer around and conveyed an advantage for a few races, however the fact that the car still lacked downforce in corners negated it's advantage

Going out of the way to make Button comfortable and welcome could easily have backfired if Lewis was someone like Alonso

Something funny is happening at Whitmarsh's McLaren and according to the media there is a revolt gathering pace

Only time will tell

 

[RasputinLives]

Lets look at Mclarens last 6 years then.

Whitmarsh:

2011 Chamiponship(so far)

2nd in Constructors/2 wins/5 podiums/2 Retirements

2010 Championship

2nd in Constructors/5 wins/10 podiums/5 Retirements

2009 Championshipafter inheriting a dog of a car)

3rd in Constructors/2 wins/3 podiums/6 Retiements.

Dennis:

2008 Championship

2nd in Constructors/6 wins/7 podiums/4 retirements

2007 Championship

disqualified from Constructors/8 wins/16 podiums/2 retirments

2006 Championship

3rd in Constructors/0 wins/9 podiums/13 retirements

As you can see Mclaren's best and worst seasons in last 6 years came under Ron Dennis - but you can see that since he inherited a shopping trolly of a car in 2009 things have been steadily getting better for Mclaren. There is certainly not a massive difference in the results there getting.

Lets look at Ron's first 3 years in charge.

1981 Championship

6th in Constructors/1 win/2 podiums/13 retirements

1982 Championship

2nd in Constructors/4 wins/4 podiums/10 retirements

1983 Championship

5th in Constructors/1 win/4 podiums/7 Retirements

After 2 World Champions and never being out of the top 3 constructors wise between 1972 to 1977 it looks absolutely awful doesn't it? Do you think at the time there was some hardcore John Watson fans calling for his head? Good job they gave him a chance right?