Jenson caused the Spa crash with Vettel

ATL11

Podium Finisher
I had to read it again and again, but Horner has said:

"Jenson, braking where he did, just took him completely by surprise. In trying to avoid him he got himself into a spin that ultimately collected Jenson in very, very difficult conditions. He is a great racing driver, he is still a very young guy and it is easy to be very critical on somebody who is relatively inexperienced – but for sure he will learn a lot from what happened."

So where Jenson braked cause the crash @ Spa. Is it me or could Vettel at the next race exit his pit box go straight on run over 16 McLaren Pit crew and it would still be McLaren's fault for having their crew out ready for a pit stop.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86276
 

MajorDanby

Motorsports' answer to Eric the Eel
Contributor
Horner said the same thing when Mark crashed in Heiki, there may have been a little more truth in that one tho :D

Still, it is ridiculous, of course Jenson was going to brake slightly earlier when rain was starting to come down. Vettel crashed because he went for a gap on the inside that wasn't there, too close to the braking zone. He realised and swung to the left hand side and out braked himself. Possibly loading and unloading of the flexible wing causing him to loose control.

Anyway, he had no need to try to pull off a do or die manoeuvre. The things that really tells you it was totally his fault, is Seb himself. Immediately apologised to Jenson.
 

F1Yorkshire

Avatar for sale to the highest bidder
Contributor
Vettel will never learn by his mistakes if Horner keeps mollycoddling him and placing the blame on the other guy.
 

snowy

Champion Elect
Christian Horner also blamed Mark Webber for the crash in Turkey, so the rose tinted spectacles Sebastian bought him really are doing a first rate job.
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
"Mark has won more races than any other driver at the moment, he has produced some great drives and he is definitely in the form of his career. Based on the season to date you would have to say that he looks in great shape, but as we saw here things can change so quickly, it would be a foolish person to rule Sebastian out at the moment."
Coded message - Mark's car will suffer problems in the remaining races.
 

ATL11

Podium Finisher
I watched the in car footage of Seb's car as he approaches Button's car, and at 55 secs on the BBC feed he seems to be quickly correcting the steering as you do in a skid. Then he turns left to avoid hitting Button, then has to over correct himself turning right and of course straight into Button's car. The fact that he came alongside Button's car so easily means he had more speed and therefore had used less brakes, i.e. didn't take into account Button braking earlier with a defensive line, the rain oh and the fact they weren't on the driving line into the corner, all the basics on F1 driving :givemestrength:

Watching the footage, it does look like someone who's panicking...... :o
 

F1Yorkshire

Avatar for sale to the highest bidder
Contributor
ATL11 said:
i.e. didn't take into account Button braking earlier with a defensive line, the rain oh and the fact they weren't on the driving line into the corner, all the basics on F1 driving :givemestrength:
Not just the basics of F1 driving. All drivers learn this from their early days in karting and other junior formulae. You could forgive him if this was his 1st year in F1 but he's apparently one of the favourites for the drivers title. :crazy:

Red Bull are seriously going to shoot themselves in the foot here by backing the wrong driver.
 

Grizzly

Bear
Contributor
His comments are daft, but unsurprising. Ross Brawn was defending Schumacher back in Hungary after the Barrichello defence move. Team bosses will always do so*


*that is until your blond haired blue eyed boy takes out his team mate, but thankfully, they (Red Bull) have a 'secondary' driver to take the wrap in those situations.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
I agree with Horner here, where Button braked clearly caused the crash. If he'd braked, say, in the middle of the straight then the Red Bull could have just sailed past and there would be no crash. :givemestrength:

Of course, in a purely technical perspective, Button breaking in an entirely sensible place to do so did cause the crash. However, that could certainly be said about Vettel's collision with Tonio Liuzzi in later laps.

Really, Mr. Horner, at times you're just embarrassing yourself and the sugar/water that you're trying to flog.

His nonsense is like a Relentless Monster, imo! :snigger:
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
I'm always surprised when people get vexed over the comments of the managers of sporting teams. Arsene Wenger never see any controversial incidents when his players are involved, Alex Ferguson never believes one of his players deserved to get sent off, Christian Horner tries to lay the blame for an accident involving one of his drivers at someone elses door.

What we don't know is what is said behind closed doors and I'm pretty sure Red Bull weren't going "there, there Sebastien. That nasty Jenson braked early and made you crash into him". Horner is paid by Red Bull to defend the team and defend the drivers regardless of how much we may think they are responsible. I don't remember Ron Dennis running down the pit lane in Japan 1990 saying "That bloody Ayrton Senna'a liability and should never be allowed to drive a Formula 1 car again".

Live with people, it's all part of the mind games and pyschology of international sport. And who knows, maybe Button did brake a little earlier, it doesn't excuse what happened as Vettel should have been able to react. It also doesn't excuse the various other stupid things SV did during the rest of the race but Horner has chosen to overlook those.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
FB said:
I'm always surprised when people get vexed over the comments of the managers of sporting teams.
If someone says something nonsense, I reserve the right to call them on it.
 
Wouldn't it be so much simpler if we agreed that racing follows the rules of the road... it's the guy behind who's at fault

What would Seb's premiums be like now?
 
Maybe 2012 / 13(?) could see a banning of the 'high nose' and a front wing more integrated with the body (BT56?) or if Bernie still wants big wings the BT44.

It's fine testing for flex but if it is a problem that could either:
adversly affect driver safety or
be hard to prove it goes beyond prescribed limits
then design the problem out by changing the regs...

can't happen this year or next but looking forward to some proper clean slate thinking with the new engine regs and it would be good to see the FIA make concerted moves back to mechanical grip.

Didn't intend this to veer off topic... just that if Vettel lost grip because of an aero failing caused by following another car AND it has occured before then it may be an area worth looking at for future regs.
 

Chad Stewarthill

Champion Elect
Contributor
Charley's Dad said:
can't happen this year or next but looking forward to some proper clean slate thinking with the new engine regs and it would be good to see the FIA make concerted moves back to mechanical grip.
But isn't safety about the only grounds on which the FIA can change pretty much any Regulation straight away if they want to? If so, and if they came to the conclusion that the current wings could be dangerous, perhaps they could change the Technical Regs for next season. I'm not holding my breath though.
 

Boyle

Race Winner
Contributor
It is easy to take Horner's words out of context here. He hasn't said that Jenson caused the crash. On the contrary, he has said that it was Vettel's fault but that the changing conditions were the major cause of the crash as well as young Seb's inexperience. I know it is easy to jump on anything Horner says considering the track record of this season, and if he'd said "it was Button's fault!" then fair enough, but I feel we may be being a bit harsh on him on this occasion.
 

ATL11

Podium Finisher
Reading James Allen there could be more to what he says, on the BBC Feed if you look at the front wing of Vettel's car as he's behind Button's car, you can see his Front wing pitch & an equivalent see saw motion as he moves around the wake of the McLaren.

If as we saw @ Hungary when the wing gets closer to the track it gives increased grip, I would imagine there is an opposite with reduction of grip as the wing rises.

So looking at the feed the way Vettel's wing raises quickly as it goes behind the wake of the McLaren (as he moved right to left) means Seb may have lost a great deal of grip and therefore control.

Therefore in the end it may have been Button's fault, well Button's wake.... :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8953382.stm
 

sportsman

Sidecar racers have the biggest cojones
Contributor
Intereresting video.Clearly the RBR wing is going up and down like a yoyo.
In truth Vettel did very little wrong.He had a look down the inside of Button no room there as Button was doing an excellent job of defending his position.
So Vettel elected to try around the outside of Button where he knew he had an advantage on corner speed.
As he came in and then out of Buttons wake his front wing moved up and down very quickly which must have unsettled his car quite dramatically.
I have rarely seen an F1 car snap sideways as quickly as the RB6 did in that particular instance.
Even Button himself said after watching the accident on TV it was a very strange incident and clearly Vettel had no intention of hitting him.

I am not trying to defend Vettel in this post but clearly this wing flexing issue does have side effects that appear to be proving dangerous.
 

fat jez

Race Winner
Valued Member
sportsman said:
I am not trying to defend Vettel in this post but clearly this wing flexing issue does have side effects that appear to be proving dangerous.
I agree, I think in this case Vettel was caught out by first one side, then the other of the front end of the car becoming unloaded. To me, it's clear evidence of why flexible front wings should be banned.
 
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