Jenson Button

Arguably the best ever driver in mixed conditions, all his wins at Mclaren have come in those conditions. His last race win in the dry came at the 2009 Turkish GP.

Button is known for his smooth driving style and is normally seen in must races doing one less stop than his rivals for tyres.

Buttons also know to be a bit of a practical joker and will take part in anything fun.

Since his debut in 2000 Button has won the majority of hearts in this country. But what is your favourite JB win?

Mine has to be Hungaroring 2006, in argubly a midfield team and he won the race in those mixed conditions to take his first win. I can remember James Allen been in tears almost and that was the first race Anthony Davidson ever commentated on.

 

[Quintessentially]

Driving skill is Senna wrestling a car around Monaco one handed whiles going pretty fast. Since when did car setup become a driving skill? F1 mechanics should naturally be good F1 drivers then but I would hazard a guess that this is not often the case . Is it really that difficult to grasp the difference between good judgement and the ability to control and manoeuvre a vehicle under whatever condition there may be? In Jenson’s own words after Aus 2010 – “I was really struggling and I lost a couple of places, so I thought ‘let’s get in, stick the slicks on.” Ergo…..

 

[Il_leone]

Driving skill is Senna wrestling a car around Monaco one handed whiles going pretty fast. Since when did car setup become a driving skill? F1 mechanics should naturally be good F1 drivers then but I would hazard a guess that this is not often the case . Is it really that difficult to grasp the difference between good judgement and the ability to control and manoeuvre a vehicle under whatever condition there may be? In Jenson’s own words after Aus 2010 – “I was really struggling and I lost a couple of places, so I thought ‘let’s get in, stick the slicks on.” Ergo…..

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Car set up is a drivers skill to being able to understand what he wants with the direction of the car and being able to communicate to his mechanic what he ultimately desires from the car to be able to go faster.
Are you implying Ayrton Senna had actually no car development skill and he simply jumped into the Mclaren and went fast.

There are have been plenty of so called naturally talented drivers who many believe were fast but never delivered like Fisichella, Trulli, Alesi and surely some of that has to be down to the inability to set up the car

Are you saying Damon Hill had a lot of driving skill then being very smooth like Jenson. No, what did everyone say about Damon Hill's key abilities - he was the technical driver they've worked with...in other words he knew how to set up a car and if anything it is him and Newey who should take credit for Williams' dominance in the 90's

 

[Il_leone]

Driving skill is Senna wrestling a car around Monaco one handed whiles going pretty fast. Since when did car setup become a driving skill? F1 mechanics should naturally be good F1 drivers then but I would hazard a guess that this is not often the case . Is it really that difficult to grasp the difference between good judgement and the ability to control and manoeuvre a vehicle under whatever condition there may be? In Jenson’s own words after Aus 2010 – “I was really struggling and I lost a couple of places, so I thought ‘let’s get in, stick the slicks on.” Ergo…..

Well Jenson managed to make the tyres last 52 laps whilst everyone else pitted and won quite easily in the end and that is skill.

People rave about the Sauber drivers being able to do 60 laps on the current pirellis and sneak points..until finally being show up in the last race it does not work on these tyres.

 

[Il_leone]

I wouldn't say Button was behind the rise of BAR from 1999-2004.

Remember BAR was a relatively new team, it needed time to peak, and that's what happened in 2004, a bit like Red Bull from 2005-2009 and saying Vettel was behind the rise of them.

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BAR or should I say BAT and Honda finally woke to their senses and got rid of the real cause of all the problems and embarrassment at BAR - Craig Pollock and Jacques Villeneuve !

In fact Villeneuve's response to telling his paymasters to Eff off to taking a paycut so the team could spend more money on development was the writing on the wall for him

 

[Bill Boddy]

For a driver who is judged as inconsistent and lazy Button is doing pretty well this season.

He is in 5th place in the WDC only 11 points behind Alonso, 12 behind Hamilton and 15 behind Webber. The points for a third place in a race cover four drivers.

 

[Bill Boddy]

If Button is such a slow racing driver how come he is only 12 points behind Hamilton? Or are you saying that Hamilton is very little quicker?

 

[FB]

I think it's fair to conclude that Jenson is a "marmite" driver. Before he joined McLaren I couldn't stand the bloke, over hyped and over rated, got lucky in 2009 when Brawn produced a blinding race car (let's not forget that if it had had the Honda engine it was originally designed for I doubt it would have achieved what it did with Mercedes power). But since he's come to "Lewis's team" he has acquitted himself exceptionally well. Against one of the fastest drivers on the grid he was pretty close in 2010 and ain't far behind in 2011.

The tyre calls he has made may have been lucky, but what the old adage, better to be lucky than good. Well, Jenson is both lucky and good and, at the end of the day, to win the drivers title you need the best car and in 2009 he had that and did that.

I'm sure come the end of the season we will see Hamilton ahead on points compared to Button but I don't think this will in any way diminish Button's achievements since joining McLaren. It also appears McLaren in a very harmonious team with their current management and driver line up which is quite unusual for a top team, especially McLaren which has a history of pitting drivers against one another all the way back to the days of Teddy Mayer.

You all know I love a good comparison, how about Jenson Button and Alan Jones? AJ was probably a bit more "rough and tough" but their career trajectories aren't that dissimilar. Who would have ever had Jones done as a potential World Champion before Patrick Head penned the exquisite FW07? He had had one previous win in a dodgy old Shadow and then found himself in a car the class of the field and didn't he make the best of it? Ditto Jenson Button - 2009 World Drivers Champion.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The tyre calls he has made may have been lucky, but what the old adage, better to be lucky than good. Well, Jenson is both lucky and good and, at the end of the day, to win the drivers title you need the best car and in 2009 he had that and did that.

I'm sure come the end of the season we will see Hamilton ahead on points compared to Button but I don't think this will in any way diminish Button's achievements since joining McLaren. It also appears McLaren in a very harmonious team with their current management and driver line up which is quite unusual for a top team, especially McLaren which has a history of pitting drivers against one another all the way back to the days of Teddy Mayer.

I respect Button more now than any-time since he first came along and promised us a new proper WC driver to go beyond Damon and Mansell. He is capable and Lewis gets on with him. But when folks start to bully me into forgiving him for the past and suddenly pretending he is some alternative smooth hero to Lewis, my blood boils. While Lewis was been forced by his father to brake later and later, Jenson was in the pub pulling chicks

Actually I like the fact Jense is talking about getting more aggressive and is actually driving to win and not just when his paycheck needs to be confirmed, he is learning from Lewis and Lewis seems happy with it

Lets hope this love in translates to wins for McLaren

F1 is becoming like football, you have hungry guys who played without shoes and you have rich kids just happy to be there

I know who will win

 

[Bill Boddy]

Points and statistics do not tell the whole story to those who are able to appreciate sport at a fine granular level

Sorry that I don't have your special knowledge about such things. What I will say is that Button and Hamilton (alphabetical order!) are in a competition which includes a section known as the WDC. The winner of this competition is the one with the most points, second is the one with the next highest points etc. There is no section for those who perform to a fine granular level (whatever that means).

Take last season, the strategy of the superior driver at McLaren was to take risks of Dnfs to attempt to overcome a car performance advantage over other teams

I will take it that you really meant to say that McLaren had a performance deficiency last season and that by the superior driver you meant Hamilton. Just how does a dns help the driver/team ? It only makes the situation worse. If you really have a performance deficiency then you make sure that you finish every race and hope that the other team falls over a few times. No driver can make the car go faster than it's maximum speed.

This season the slower driver is not far behind again because there are other faster teams involved in the competition

Or perhaps the inferior driver is behind his superior because he has had two dnfs.

If it was a 2 man race Jenson vs Lewis what do you really honestly think would happen?

Please tell me

I expect that one of them would win some races and the other one would win some races. It would depend on the circuits and the conditions. However it is not a two driver race, there are another twentyfour drivers per race involved. This brings different skills into play, in this case closing the gap between the two drivers. In my opinion Button is an underrated driver, he may not be the fastest ever but to a large extent he has the ability to keep on scoring points; this is the object of the exercise.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Correct Bill

Lewis has scored more points so far than his teammate and is therefore better

Yes indeed. But Button has had two retirements due to mechanical problems and not in any way his fault. In both cases he was headed for a probable fourth position. Assuming fifth in each he would have scored and extra 20 points, taking him up to second in the championship. Hamilton may be in front of him but morally Button has the high ground. However WDCs are not won on maybes.

Night, night.

 

[Josh]

I actually think he's saying that Hamilton is doing worse than Button so far.

 

[Slyboogy]

I think it's fair to conclude that Jenson is a "marmite" driver. Before he joined McLaren I couldn't stand the bloke, over hyped and over rated, got lucky in 2009 when Brawn produced a blinding race car (let's not forget that if it had had the Honda engine it was originally designed for I doubt it would have achieved what it did with Mercedes power). But since he's come to "Lewis's team" he has acquitted himself exceptionally well. Against one of the fastest drivers on the grid he was pretty close in 2010 and ain't far behind in 2011.

I am in the same boat as you, but I feel that after his 2009 championship win and 2010 season he has gotten even more over hyped and over rated. Just need to look at the BBC who always constantly big him up and when he fails they will find an excuse, they are currently doing the same with di Resta.

I have heard many rank him in the top 15 of all greatest drivers, yes he's good, a world champion, but top 15...really?

 

[Quintessentially]

Are you implying Ayrton Senna had actually no car development skill and he simply jumped into the Mclaren and went fast.

Are you saying Damon Hill had a lot of driving skill then being very smooth like Jenson.

Please leave out the revisionist theories because I haven't mentioned Senna or Hill nor did I say the former has no car development skill. Car setup and the ability to drive a car (fast as is the case in F1) are two different things. No one passed their driving test based on their ability recite the highway code. There are some brilliant F1 mechanics out there who cannot drive an F1 car. There is also a video on the McLaren website with Hamilton and his race engineer setting up a car on a simulator. Both took their turn to do a lap around Korea (I think) and the race engineer was something like 7seconds slower (massive margin) and this should tell you where driver skill comes into play. You say 'car development skill' but this is not synonymous with the skill of driving an F1 car. Developing and setting up a car is part of the knowledge gaining process that most F1 drivers go through anyway. There are some notable drivers in the current field (no names mentioned) who came into F1 with minimal knowledge of car setup but were immediately fast.

There was very little skill involved in Jenson's decision to go for dry tyres in Australia 010 as proven by his post race comments. He was going backwards and went for broke. Contrary to popular belief he actually struggles in mixed conditions in terms of pure driving and the start of Silverstone this year was another prime example.

 

[FB]

Please try and avoid personal insults when responding to threads and if you don't want to contribute to the discussion you don't have to.

Thanks

FB

 

[The Pits]

I think to be fair, that the truth lies somewhere between the two opposing viewpoints.

Is Jenson the best ever in changeable condicitions? personally, I doubt it, however, of the current field, would you be betting against him performing well on a damp track on slick tyres? I believe that he has few peers in those conditions, certainly fewer than on a dry track.

I cannot comment about development etc, however, McLaren and Brawn and many of his previous team principles spoke highly of him in that regard, and how he worked with the team, so I will take that. He has also stated himself that when he started his attitude was not right, and it was a lot of hard work to get that straightened out, but he did, around the time he changed managers.

As for the stats not showing the ful story, I agree, but that cuts both ways. People seem to be quite happy not to see Korea as an anomaly for Jenson, at the same time, not looking at Monaco as an anomaly for Hamilton (not aying this has been specifcially mentioned here, but it has before) if everyone were being honest, Korea was an anomaly. Over the last 3 seasons, I cannot recall a driver who has performed outstandingly well at all races, and different people could almost certainly point out poor performances by all drivers, not sure of the numbers, however, that would also depend on how you would classify a poor performance.

The set up thing, I am not sure about. he comments a lot, and he may be sensitive to changes, but I think that he is simply more vocal about it, and when it is right, he can be really good. Is this a weakness? possibly, does it mean he is unable to set up his car? doubtful, could it mean that there are things he would like to change given more time? possibly.

My experience is that the main issue is pace on new tyres in a low fuelled car, on a Saturday afternoon. I do not believe that this is laziness, or a lack of application, or indeed anything which is easily fixed, or which can be gleaned by forum discussion, however, it can be improved, and I would be disappointed if this is not something being looked at and changed, unless it had a serious detriment to race pace, which could be the compromise!

So, attempting to be impartial, I would say he is around the fourth best at the moment, although this is just my opinion, and it is also my opinion that it is not certain how he would fare alongside Vettel or Alonso

 

[RasputinLives]

There was very little skill involved in Jenson's decision to go for dry tyres in Australia 010 as proven by his post race comments. He was going backwards and went for broke. Contrary to popular belief he actually struggles in mixed conditions in terms of pure driving and the start of Silverstone this year was another prime example.

Well we're going to have to disagree with what is 'driver skill' and what isn't. All I'm going to say is if the true greats were merely judged on the points you consider as driver skill then why aren't the winners of A1GP hearalded as legendary? They all jumped in to identical cars and wasn't it dull.

As for Button actually struggling in mixed conditions I think you might be kidding yourself there, I suggest you re-watch the Hungarian Grand Prix and pay attention to Jenson's lap times and speed - Yes Lewis was unlucky but Jenson was right there with him anyway. As for Silverstone - we'll never know if what Button was doing would have worked out or not. We know Lewis early speed left him having to save fuel at the end and we also know that Button's slower pace meant he would have done one less tyre stop. I think Mclaren were almost a bit lucky Jenson went out when he did because I think they would have ended up in a situation with Jenson stuck behind Lewis who is being told to save fuel with Massa bearing down on them. The thought of what the internet would have been like if Mclaren had been in a situation where they had to tell Lewis to let Jenson through makes me shudder!

 

[Quintessentially]

What happened in A1 GP is a totally different debate all together. GP2 or F3 would probably be more appropriate.

Also the fact that I argue what should be deemed driver skills does not automatically mean I believe it’s the sole category for judging great drivers. Most avid F1 fans would know that outright speed behind F1 machinery is just one part to the package and some rank highly than others.

I suggest you watch the start of Silverstone and Hungary when it was all about skill for the most part – who was brave enough on the brakes, get on the throttle early, follow different racing lines, clip the apex etc etc – all indicators of skill behind F1 machinery. At the end of lap 10 the gap between Jenson and the leading car was over 8seconds despite the fact they were side by side on lap one. What happened in quali was quite frankly embarrassing but we don’t want to talk about that as it will inevitably end up in driver A v B debate, something I've been keen to avoid.

@ the pits- I don’t believe anyone has suggested that Jenson was weak in the car setup/development area. The question was whether this should be attributed to driver skill rather than general knowledge/experience. The structure of F1 these days (with scheduled technical briefings, race engineer/driver relationship, simulators etc) mean most modern F1 drivers are fairly astute in this regard. You only have to look at the issues between a very experienced driver like Webber and a relative novice like Vettel to see get the picture.

 

[Bill Boddy]

I actually think he's saying that Hamilton is doing worse than Button so far.

Oh, I wouldn't dare. Just because Button has averaged 14.9 points per race excluding those where he retired due to mechanical problems whilst Hamilton has averaged 14.6 point per race with no mechanical retirements does not mean that Button is doing better. We need to look at things on a more granular level.

 

[The Pits]

Q, it has been fairly obviously alluded to by some. For the avoidance of doubt, i believe it is down to both skill and experience, and, without inside knowledge, I do not believe it is possible to make a judgement on how good or bad any of the drivers are in terms of development, simply because there is no way of knowing what has been said, what was done as a result of that, and what difference it made.

 

[Quintessentially]

Q, it has been fairly obviously alluded to by some. For the avoidance of doubt, i believe it is down to both skill and experience, and, without inside knowledge, I do not believe it is possible to make a judgement on how good or bad any of the drivers are in terms of development, simply because there is no way of knowing what has been said, what was done as a result of that, and what difference it made.

See my edit.

To add to this - Jenson is constantly fighting against the old reputation he developed a when he entered F1 and was taken in by the so called playboy lifestyle. There was a strong argument he didn’t show the same level of commitment like subsequent entrants and this lead Bernie to throw some harsh (but true) words his way. His struggles in quali are not something that magically surfaced at McLaren. He had the same issue at Brawn after they lost the DD advantage and he didn’t qualify front row for a ridiculous amount of races. At 30years I don’t think he’s going to rediscover any new tricks in quali but law of averages say he will qualify front row every 20-25 races. Poor return for a supposedly smooth driver. I would go with your 4th best driver but it would be interesting to see what Rosberg could do in competitive machinery.