Jenson Button

Arguably the best ever driver in mixed conditions, all his wins at Mclaren have come in those conditions. His last race win in the dry came at the 2009 Turkish GP.

Button is known for his smooth driving style and is normally seen in must races doing one less stop than his rivals for tyres.

Buttons also know to be a bit of a practical joker and will take part in anything fun.

Since his debut in 2000 Button has won the majority of hearts in this country. But what is your favourite JB win?

Mine has to be Hungaroring 2006, in argubly a midfield team and he won the race in those mixed conditions to take his first win. I can remember James Allen been in tears almost and that was the first race Anthony Davidson ever commentated on.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Didn't Jenson beach his car into the Malaysian sand pit in Q3 in 2010 in the wet?

It meant a poor grid position...and he couldn't handle a rusty Schumacher when he came up to the Mercedes in the Grand Prix...inspite of the advantage of an F-Duct.

 

[RasputinLives]

please see previous post re: chanagable conditions.

 

[Josh]

Honda even, point remains, the Jap outfit had the largest budget and did not really move forward with development

They had the 4th largest budget in 2008, actually. Which is still relatively large, but nowhere near Toyota.

 

[RasputinLives]

and you have to say they moved forward in time for 2009 didn't they? massively forward

 

[Cookinflatsix]

They had the 4th largest budget in 2008, actually. Which is still relatively large, but nowhere near Toyota.

4th biggest out of 11 teams, one of the biggest budgets, same point still applies

and you have to say they moved forward in time for 2009 didn't they? massively forward

the move massively forward was nothing to do with Buttons sensitive feedback. All to do with a massive loophole in the rules, If it had been all down to the feedback Brawn would have kept him at all costs

 

[RasputinLives]

Yeah. You're right Button probably had nothing to do with developing the car. They just strapped some device on the back and the car went 2 seconds faster. I'm sure it emerged fully functional and didn't require any testing or driver feedback from Jenson and Rubens at all.

Might as well have put monkeys in the car.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

But this has more to do with Vettel maximizing his chances when he was able to. Webber certainly wasn't anywhere close in the first 1/4 of the year, was he...And Button's pace wasn't fast enough at that time (inrelation to Hamilton).

Further, Hamilton hasn't maximized his chances. Button hasn't either. Button lost a win at Monaco. Threw it away because he destroyed his tyres too quickly in the 2nd stint trying to pull away too quickly from Vettel (who was on the ropes because of the bad tyre stop).

Lastly, points at the begining of the year are just as valuable as late in the year. It's a championship, not a play-off or a tournament.

As per this:

If Vettel doesn't show up, A Hamilton or Button or Alonso will win the championship because Webber in that current car won't win it for Red Bull.

Since Spain (inclusive) either McLaren or Ferrari have been faster in most of the races...but Vettel has extended his lead. That's not insignificant. Button, in comparison, began to bottle it in the 2nd part of 2009. Vettel's not doing that.

Vettel was interested in winning Hungary after Hamilton/McLaren lost it...but Renault admitted that the German's RB7 had engine issues. Often Vettel's KERS had been hobbled in the earlier races. Don't forget that.

My point is that it is unfair to judge Jenson and Lewis against this years early from from Vettel and that your statement about the cars being equal in the race is meaningless when the Bull had such a qualifying advantage. I think I made that point well and I don't think that in your response you have discredited that but rather moved the topic off on a different tangent. Vettel has indeed extended his lead, and this has been more due to errors from the other teams who are all fighting each other whilst his own team-mate is back there fighting with them. the diference, and largest contributing factor, in Vettel's continuing stretch of the lead is that he is not in that fight. He is well clear of the fight by means of dominating his dejected team-mate with both qualifying and race-pace. Vettel is not even in a fight, whilst those with the best chance of having a charge at him are. If you are not fighting then you need to be pretty foolhardy to get hurt. If you are - as Jenson, Lewis and Fernando - then scrapes and bruises are inevitable. These guys are out to win races whilst Seb is out to defend a championship that he and Red Bull have effectively already won.

Anyway, I think we can move on from Vettel and if we are going to focus the conversation on him then, well, there's a thread for that.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Might as well have put monkeys in the car.

That would be nuts

The car had a new engine shoehorned in at the start of the season, anything previous to that probably went out the window, and the result was a function of luck and the loophole and not feedback from the drivers

 

[RasputinLives]

could happen. Look at Planet of the Apes

ermmm.....I think they may have tested the car after the new engine was put in. Yep, Pretty sure they did. They are not HRT. I'm also pretty sure that a new engine would not have undone all data from all parts of the car.

Kid yourself if you like but suggesting the Brawn car's speed had nothing to do with the development through its (very experienced) drivers is riddiculous. Especially as Ross Brawn delib kept Rubens in rather than replace him with Bruno Senna for that exact reason

 

[Grizzly]

the move forward was nothing to do with Buttons sensitive feedback. All to do with a massive loophole in the rules..

stop it, my ribs hurt.

..So, Honda spent $400m on deciphering loopholes. and Button is plain average. Surely there is no more discussion to be had.

One suggestion on a slightly more serious note, why don't you go back and look at some of the feedback Ross Brawn was giving on Buttons performance during 2009.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

..So, Honda spent $400m on deciphering loopholes. and Button is plain average. Surely there is no more discussion to be had.

One suggestion on a slightly more serious note, why don't you go back and look at some of the feedback Ross Brawn was giving on Buttons performance during 2009.

Button is better than the average driver. He can be very very good in flashes. To be great requires more than flashes.

Its when people start to suggest that this is an advantage or is by design that many take umbrage. To say that he is the best ever in changeable conditions, or that he is a strategic genius beyond the mere fact of being one of the most experienced on the grid, this all seem like distraction from the simple fact that he is a good not great driver and is a personable chap with die hard followers.

To now have us believe that he is exceptionally good at providing feedback raises the question of why this was not apparent at all those years before 2009. Where is the proof that he is better at feedback than others?

The Honda of 2008 ofcourse will have input from the drivers, but to suggest that the success of the 2009 Brawn was because of Jensons feedback is frankly laughable. Where is the proof that Button is better than Barrichello?

So Ross Brawn gave feedback on Buttons performance in 2009? The car developed through that season did it? before the season they were lucky that the car drove well out of the box at testing with its new Merc engine.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

stop it, my ribs hurt.

..So, Honda spent $400m on deciphering loopholes. and Button is plain average. Surely there is no more discussion to be had.

One suggestion on a slightly more serious note, why don't you go back and look at some of the feedback Ross Brawn was giving on Buttons performance during 2009.

Or 2008? Everyone gets praise when you are winning.

Not knocking Jenson, of course, but to refute one weighted opinion with laughter and then another leaves us with a chasm of understanding.

 

[RasputinLives]

ermmm no one has suggested Button is the 'best ever' at feedback Cook. The only person who actually bought 'feedback' up was you with a claim that his 'feedback' wasn't as good as it was made out to be. You then went on to suggest that the 2009 Brawn being a good car had absolutely nothing to do with Jenson's development and was merely a good car due to someone chucking a new device on the back.

I would not say Jenson is the 'best developer ever' as I do not work in the business and therefore would not be able to confirm that. I will point out that people within the business have said he gives good 'feedback'. Also if you look at every season he's driven since joining B.A.R (apart from 2009 and possible 2010) you'll see that results for that team have gotten better as the season has gone on which suggests to me some form of feedback and working well. I won't dismiss Rubens in all of this because I don't think its any coincidence that Ferrari's reign as unbeatable started when Barrichello joined the team or why teams keep picking him up as a driver when people think he is past it. Rubens has a talent there.

The whole idea that Jenson had no influence on the Brawn being a good car I think gies hand in hand with your Vettel boost button theory earlier. Just because a driver has a superior car does not mean you can completely dismiss there skills as a driver. Constantly undermining them is vesy silly. I shall be interested to see if any of these theories come out from you if Lewis has the best car next year.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

This is the Button thread so lets not criticise Jenson.

He is exceptionally good at developing a car with his extremely sensitive feedback. The 5 years prior to 2009 it was just bad luck and bad management that didn't see Honda improve every year.

For 2009 though things changed and Jenson s incredible genius talents for car development were finally allowed to shine, and he can be wholly credited for the success of the Brawn in the first half of the season. His talents then took a back seat as the car didn't find another leap forward. Button was not able to win anymore races although his teammate outpointed him and won in the second half.
We can maybe say Rubens discovered his own development skills in the second half of the season

 

[ExtremeNinja]

This is the Button thread so lets not criticise Jenson.

No, lets. Surely this isn't just a Jenson fan thread. I assume that we can talk about the good, the bad and the ugly of Jenson.

On a side-note, creepily Jenson watches me as I have a shower every morning as his face is all over my shampoo bottle under the headline "Best of British". If Head & Shoulders say it is so, then it must be.

I would like to see Lewis on a shampoo bottle. "Take two bottles into the shower? No, I just Stop 'n' Go."

 

[RasputinLives]

This is the Button thread so lets not criticise Jenson.

quite.

He is exceptionally good at developing a car with his extremely sensitive feedback. The 5 years prior to 2009 it was just bad luck and bad management that didn't see Honda improve every year.

In actual fact Jenson helped bring B.A.R/Honda up the field.

2003 - 5th place - 26pts
2004 - 2nd place 119 pts

in 2005 they only scored 38 points and finished 6th but as the DQ'd from 2 of the Grand Prix, didn't start in the U.S and didn't actual score any points until the 9th GP of the year you have to say it was a good come back - taking into account Jenson scored 37 of the 38 points as well - you have to say he brought the car back into contention

2006 - 4th place - 86 points

Then came the awful years of 07 and 08 - and even then you have to say the 08 car was better than the 07 car.

When Jenson joined B.A.R they'd never been higher than 6th in the constructors, they'd had 2 3rd places and 20 points scoring finishes in 4 years.

When Honda left the sport the highest they'd finished was 2nd in the constructors. They'd had 1 race win, 4 second places, 14 3rd places and 66 points finishes from 9 years.

I'd say he contributed to bringing Honda forward no end. The myth that they were 'another Toyota' is really not true

 

[Slyboogy]

I wouldn't say Button was behind the rise of BAR from 1999-2004.

Remember BAR was a relatively new team, it needed time to peak, and that's what happened in 2004, a bit like Red Bull from 2005-2009 and saying Vettel was behind the rise of them.

 

[Quintessentially]

Rasputin

You have just confirmed in your post that Jenson is susceptible to making wrong calls like any other driver although his experience means he’s better placed than most to make these calls.

Good judgement in changeable conditions should not be confused with driving skill. I tried to make this distinction in the previous page when someone said he’s the best driver in mixed conditions. It suggests a skill level above his peers but this is clearly false. In order to make an honest assessment you have to look beyond the result and more specifically at scenarios where driver skill is the dominant factor. Like the opening laps in Australia 2010 for example or even Silverstone 2011. Or was he struggling to get heat into his tyres? Yet we are told the McLaren is one of the best at getting heat into rubber – a notion conveniently sidestepped by the ‘pun-dits’ when he fails to deliver. You’d be hard pressed in arguing otherwise that strategy and luck haven’t played a huge part in the wins he’s had in changeable conditions, this includes his first win. Remove these influencing factors and he follows a Toro Rosso home (see Korea last year) behind greats like Hulkenburg and Alguersuari.

It would be interesting to see how many points Jenson has accumulated in changeable conditions since he found himself in competitive machinery (say Brawn 09 onwards). I would wager he doesn’t make top 3. At the same time, I think he deserves far more credit than being labelled a specialist for mixed conditions.

 

[Slyboogy]

I think Vettel won in Valencia with the current regulations

I agree with the rest of your points though

 

[RasputinLives]

Good judgement in changeable conditions should not be confused with driving skill.

Now I'm confused. If being able to judge where the grip on the race track is and whats the best tyre to maxamise that grip and then being able to produce the speed you think is there before others have worked it out isn't a driving skill then I've been looking at this sport wrong.

Jenson makes sure he's on the right tyre at the right time to get the most speed out of the car. Senna was great at that too - and Schumi. Is it not a driving skill?

How about being able to set your car up correctly for each track? also not a driving skill?

Finally Sebs half second Q3 advantage seems to disappeared with the banning of the ability to change maps between Q3 and the race, he hasn't won since, he is still one of the best drivers but has obviously lost a bit of magic, n'est pas?

Think you're seeing things because you want to on that my friend. We'll have to agree to disagree.