Jenson Button

Arguably the best ever driver in mixed conditions, all his wins at Mclaren have come in those conditions. His last race win in the dry came at the 2009 Turkish GP.

Button is known for his smooth driving style and is normally seen in must races doing one less stop than his rivals for tyres.

Buttons also know to be a bit of a practical joker and will take part in anything fun.

Since his debut in 2000 Button has won the majority of hearts in this country. But what is your favourite JB win?

Mine has to be Hungaroring 2006, in argubly a midfield team and he won the race in those mixed conditions to take his first win. I can remember James Allen been in tears almost and that was the first race Anthony Davidson ever commentated on.

 

[The Pits]

Or where he went for a gap that was always going to close? Like in Monaco and in Monza?

I believe last year there were more failures on Lewis' car than on Jensons, (Suzuka, Hungary, Barcelona)

I guess mechanical issues are beyond the drivers control, whereas racing incidents, whoever you believe to be at fault are not.

Suffice it to say, I think Jenson is doing better this year than he did last. I wonder what could have led to that? I think it will only be at the end of the season that we will be able to make a full judgement, needless to say, at the moment, I am quite happy.

 

[FB]

So we would have to look at Hamiltons average per race excluding those where for example Jense drove him into the wall

I REALLY don't think we want go down that road of discussion again now do we? Or should I say we won't be going down that road...

 

[RasputinLives]

Most avid F1 fans would know that outright speed behind F1 machinery is just one part to the package and some rank highly than others.

Can we avoid the 'common sense says', 'any proper F1 fan' or 'the majority of F1 fans think' sentences to justify opinons. We're all 'proper' F1 fans and we're debating it so obviously there isn't a common view is there?

I suggest you watch the start of Silverstone and Hungary when it was all about skill for the most part – who was brave enough on the brakes, get on the throttle early, follow different racing lines, clip the apex etc etc – all indicators of skill behind F1 machinery. At the end of lap 10 the gap between Jenson and the leading car was over 8seconds despite the fact they were side by side on lap one. What happened in quali was quite frankly embarrassing but we don’t want to talk about that as it will inevitably end up in driver A v B debate, something I've been keen to avoid.

So some parts of the race are skill and some are not? and skill is all about speed? The point you seemed to have avoided commenting on is that at Silverstone although Lewis went off in one direcetion and Jenson another that all be it for a Mclaren pitstop error they would have most likely ended up at the same place on the track. To me this shows equal level of 'skill' as both drivers would have got their machines round the total laps in nearly enough the exact same time. Skill to you appears to be about flare, hanging it out on cornors, late breaking and dramatic wheel locking. Just because Jenson is not sensational and hanging on the edge when racing does not mean he does not have 'driver skill'

As for you point about not wanting this to be a A v B driver debate - the fact you bring up the 'embarrasment' of Silverstone Quali in those terms quite clearly show where your motivation is coming from so I shall make this clear to one and all - The fact that I think Jenson is a good driver and very good in chanagable conditions does in no way downgrade the skills of Lewis Hamilton

 

[Galahad]

What was interesting in Hungary, and I haven't really heard commented upon, was that not only could Button make the super-soft tyres last longer than Hamilton, but he was also setting faster lap times on them. It was true in both stints, but particularly notable in the second (third of the race). After their second pit stops, Jenson was faster than Lewis on five consecutive laps, at a time when Hamilton's style should theoretically have given him the advantage (until the tyre wear came into play).

Maybe they all have good weekends and bad.

 

[Quintessentially]

Can we avoid the 'common sense says', 'any proper F1 fan' or 'the majority of F1 fans think' sentences to justify opinons. We're all 'proper' F1 fans and we're debating it so obviously there isn't a common view is there?

So some parts of the race are skill and some are not? and skill is all about speed? The point you seemed to have avoided commenting on is that at Silverstone although Lewis went off in one direcetion and Jenson another that all be it for a Mclaren pitstop error they would have most likely ended up at the same place on the track. To me this shows equal level of 'skill' as both drivers would have got their machines round the total laps in nearly enough the exact same time. Skill to you appears to be about flare, hanging it out on cornors, late breaking and dramatic wheel locking. Just because Jenson is not sensational and hanging on the edge when racing does not mean he does not have 'driver skill'

As for you point about not wanting this to be a A v B driver debate - the fact you bring up the 'embarrasment' of Silverstone Quali in those terms quite clearly show where your motivation is coming from so I shall make this clear to one and all - The fact that I think Jenson is a good driver and very good in chanagable conditions does in no way downgrade the skills of Lewis Hamilton

Re - your first paragraph - That wouldn’t be necessary if we stick to the points raised and not respond with what one thinks or may not think.

At no point did I say “Jenson does not have driver skill” bearing in this argument was borne out of the assertion that Jenson is the best driver in mixed conditions. I contended this on the basis that even though he generally has good judgement and experience in this regard, there are better drivers in the field under aforementioned conditions. For the sake of clarity - It is possible for a driver to finish behind lesser skilled drivers once you factor in strategy, luck, experience, knowledge and the many other elements that define a driver’s race. Did you know this? This clearly does not show an equal level of skill at all. This is why I singled out the start of the race in Silverstone where driver skill was the dominant factor yet you chose to ignore this. I’m very comfortable with my opinion that his quali performance in Germany was embarrassing and the lap time seems to prove the point. In fact Jenson’s general performance in quali since the Brawn lost its DD advantage has been lousy for the most part.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Button is truly remarkable on an evolving circuit. If every race started in damp conditions and gradually dried out while the heavens constantly threatened, I've no doubt he'd be World Champ many times over.

Looking at the lap times again, what strikes me is the first flying lap that Jense turned in on the Soft tire. On Lap 44, Button posted a 1:24.549. So much for the softs being dramatically slower than the Super-Softs! Hamilton wouldn't match that lap until Lap 59, his second flying lap on the Soft tire.

While this worked out fantastically for Jenson, it was a stunning oversight by McLaren to think that the Super-Soft tire would be able to pull out such an enormous gap on the Soft.

For reference, here are the Macca boys Lap Times.

 

[Quintessentially]

Button is truly remarkable on an evolving circuit. If every race started in damp conditions and gradually dried out while the heavens constantly threatened, I've no doubt he'd be World Champ many times over.

Well if anyone has a bit of time on their hands, they can add some statistical significance to the debate by working out the standings for races held in mixed conditions since 2009 (when Jenson found himself in competitive machinery so not to disadvantage him). My belief is that he won't make the top 3 let alone win the comp.

 

[Grizzly]

Well volunteered

 

[Galahad]

Lewis/Jenson first stint on Options 13/15 second stint 13/14, Lewis was ahead of Jenson effectively in the lead, whereas Jenson was having to drive fast to catch up. not saying that Jenson did not drive fast that race, but i dont think his tyres lasted that much longer or that he did better than Lewis in the first 2 stints on options

Lewis will have been told by the team that Jenson was on course to do one pitstop fewer, so I don't think he would have been cruising, rather, trying to build enough of a margin for his extra stop.

As for the tyres, Keke has kindly posted the lap times so you can see for yourself. Button was still putting in competitive times approaching his tyre changes, while Hamilton's times dropped off quite noticeably. In fact, arguably one of McLaren's errors was not bringing Lewis in a lap or two sooner each time, such was the drop-off (the famous 'cliff').

 

[Galahad]

Well if anyone has a bit of time on their hands, they can add some statistical significance to the debate by working out the standings for races held in mixed conditions since 2009 (when Jenson found himself in competitive machinery so not to disadvantage him). My belief is that he won't make the top 3 let alone win the comp.

The races are Malaysia 2009, China 2009, Australia 2010, China 2010, Belgium 2010, Korea 2010, Canada 2011, Great Britain 2011 and Hungary 2011.

 

[Quintessentially]

Looking at the lap times again, what strikes me is the first flying lap that Jense turned in on the Soft tire. On Lap 44, Button posted a 1:24.549. So much for the softs being dramatically slower than the Super-Softs! Hamilton wouldn't match that lap until Lap 59, his second flying lap on the Soft tire.

He immediately experienced a big drop in performance and went one second slower? What was that all about? Took too much out of the tyres?

 

[KekeTheKing]

Well if anyone has a bit of time on their hands, they can add some statistical significance to the debate by working out the standings for races held in mixed conditions since 2009 (when Jenson found himself in competitive machinery so not to disadvantage him). My belief is that he won't make the top 3 let alone win the comp.

C'mon man, this isn't very difficult to work out.

2009 Malaysia (WET) - Won
2009 China (WET) - P3
2010 Australia (Mixed) - Won
2010 China (Mixed) - Won
2010 Belgium (Mixed) - Taken out by Vettel
2010 Korea (WET) - P12
2011 Canada (WET/Mixed) - Won
2011 GBR (Mixed) - Retired after botched pit stop
2011 Hungary (Mixed) - Won

There's no need to calculate any standings, Button has been THE BEST. This shouldn't be hard to accept. He may not be the fastest in a monsoon, he may not be the fastest in scorching heat, but somewhere in between, Jenson sure can find his footing.

 

[KekeTheKing]

He immediately experienced a big drop in performance and went one second slower? What was that all about? Took too much out of the tyres?

Obviously not. He finished and won the race on that set of boots.

 

[RasputinLives]

Re - your first paragraph - That wouldn’t be necessary if we stick to the points raised and not respond with what one thinks or may not think.

At no point did I say “Jenson does not have driver skill” bearing in this argument was borne out of the assertion that Jenson is the best driver in mixed conditions. I contended this on the basis that even though he generally has good judgement and experience in this regard, there are better drivers in the field under aforementioned conditions. For the sake of clarity - It is possible for a driver to finish behind lesser skilled drivers once you factor in strategy, luck, experience, knowledge and the many other elements that define a driver’s race. Did you know this? This clearly does not show an equal level of skill at all. This is why I singled out the start of the race in Silverstone where driver skill was the dominant factor yet you chose to ignore this. I’m very comfortable with my opinion that his quali performance in Germany was embarrassing and the lap time seems to prove the point. In fact Jenson’s general performance in quali since the Brawn lost its DD advantage has been lousy for the most part.

Ok this is starting to go round in circles so I'll just let you read everyone else comments and look at lap times. For the second time I'll point out you have a strange definition of skill once again. Surely being able to judge a stragey right whilst lapping a circuit at an average of 160mph is a driving skill right? Also you define the start of the race at Silverstone as being where "driver skill was the dominant factor" firstly I'd like to ask how you've come to this conclusion that they are the conditions where true skill apply and that no luck, expereince or strategy(which aren't driving skills according to you) come in to play. Secondly I'll point out I didn't ignore your bit about Silverstone I answered it quite clearly that Jenson put himself in a situation where he could come back at those in front of him later. Now I will admit that although the 'less haste more speed' style of driving is not as exciting as the sideways round the corner yeehaa! approach it is no less a driver skill - and as I pointed out in my previous post if not for an error at a pitstop he would have been pretty much in the same place as his team-mate on the track so he obviously was quite succesful. Ever heard the story of the Torroise and the Hare?

I think you need to realise its all very well coming up with a strategy but unless you have the driving skill to actual put the plan in action its about as much use as a chocolate Tea-Pot

 

[Cookinflatsix]

For the second time I'll point out you have a strange definition of skill once again. Surely being able to judge a stragey right whilst lapping a circuit at an average of 160mph is a driving skill right? Also you define the start of the race at Silverstone as being where "driver skill was the dominant factor" firstly I'd like to ask how you've come to this conclusion that they are the conditions where true skill apply and that no luck, expereince or strategy(which aren't driving skills according to you) come in to play.

I think we have to distinguish between driving skills and driving experience

To drive fast in the wet is universally recognised as a strong measure of a drivers skill. The start of the race in wet conditions showed certain driving skills.

The ability to drive fast in shifting conditions is also a skill but is possibly a lot more dependent on experience over time. So we know Button is a good driver, we know he is not consistently fast in dry or wet conditions. We know that he drives well compared to others when the conditions are a lottery etc. This is a sign of a good driver, however its not something to latch onto and call someone a great about as the chances are that drivers who are great in all conditions given the experience will acquire this 'skill' by default.

Its Jenson s strength fair enough, but its not a free pass to the hall of fame

Consider this, the amount of years of experience driving coupled with a good car, if we discounted each year of experience for each driver and then looked at the results in mixed conditions over the last 2 years, would Jenson still be the best?

He has the most experience by far out of the top 3 cars and this is a strength of his he has capitalised on, 200 races is amazing. Alonso has a lot of experience also but IMHO cannot be said to be good in the wet or mixed conditions.

 

[The Pits]

Hahahahahaha!! Good one!

Oh, you were being serious?

Surely, you gain experience driving in all conditions? Surely the skill in driving is also in applying experience to a given circumstance? Raw skill is good, with experience it may improve, providing the experience is applied correctly.

And please do not try and cherry pick the areas of driving which are down to skill and which are down to experience, as it then becomes obvious what you are trying to do.

It is not a bad thing to say that Jenson may be good in particular conditions, go on, give it a go, you know you want to!!!

 

[RasputinLives]

The Mixed/Wet conditions championship table that were requested earlier using the races Keke named stands as follows:

Jenson Button: 140pts
Lewis Hamilton: 107pts
Fernando Alonso: 101pts
Mark Webber: 90pts
Sebastian Vettel: 87pts
Fellipe Massa: 64pts
Robert Kubica: 53pts
Nico Rosberg: 47pts
Michael Schumahcer 34pts
Rubens Barrichello: 34pts
Nick Heidfeld: 24 pts
Timo Glock : 19pts
Vitantonio Liuzzi: 14pts
Jarno Trulli: 12pts
Adrian Sutil 10pts
Heiki Kovalianian 10pts
Vitaly Petrov 10pts
Kamui Kobyashi 8pts
Paul Di Resta 6pts
Jamie Alguersauri 6pts
Sebastian Buemi 5pts
Sebastian Bourdais 5pts
Kimi Rakkionien 1pt
Nico Hulkenberg 1pt

Have to say Alonso looks good too if you take into account the terrible Renault of 2009 he drove but as expected Jenson on top and Lewis in second. Bet Mclaren wish it would rain every race!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Well, McLaren having not had any clear car advantage over this time period clearly demonstrate that they have the best wet weather drivers at the front end of the grid. I would in fact argue, the whole grid.

I am not surprised to see Seb where he is. I've never really rated him as a wet weather driver despite his first win in the Torro Rosso. I believe that the TR was the class car of the lot on that particular day. Bordais' qualifying position pretty much confirms this.

 

[Slyboogy]

Well, McLaren having not had any clear car advantage over this time period clearly demonstrate that they have the best wet weather drivers at the front end of the grid. I would in fact argue, the whole grid.

It has been stated that the McLaren in colder conditions can get heat into their tyres much better than the rest, especially wet conditions, Hungary this year shows that, as Vettel was agonisingly slow in the first 5 laps, then managed to be on thereabouts pace with the McLaren's, same with the Ferrari drivers.

Button and Hamilton have had just as much as bad wet races compared to good ones.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Surely, you gain experience driving in all conditions? Surely the skill in driving is also in applying experience to a given circumstance? Raw skill is good, with experience it may improve, providing the experience is applied correctly.

It is not a bad thing to say that Jenson may be good in particular conditions, go on, give it a go, you know you want to!!!

Aha, the point is that this changeable conditions thing is down to gambles on tyre choice, driving carefully and not pushing too hard, right place at right time Thats what wins Jenson these races and that is largely a function of experience IMHO. Simply put Jenson has been in these situations many many more times than all the other drivers in good cars. Same as in most professions, the more experienced will be calmer and more effective in chaotic and unpredictable situations

What exact skill is it that he uses to win these races?

Its not driving fastest, its not by avoiding spinning whilst everyone else does.