...and on more days than not Hamilton is the better bet.
Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton
- Thread starter Brogan
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Yet Button brings you in more points over a three year period.
Its clearly a close call.
Its clearly a close call.
Irishgreen
Banned
Why ???
It's a lot easier to score points when the car you're given makes it to the finishing line. 
And so on....
Irishgreen
Banned
Ok Mr B, I apologise
Right chaps this is by no means a good way to judge points but sod it I'll do it anyway, lets look at soley mechanical (I'm counting team blunders such as loose wheel nuts) issues for both Button and Hamilton since Bahrain 2010. This comparison will look at points lost in total with issues but will also add points either of them gained from the other's problem. Anywhere they gain points I will remove them from their season total and vice versa.
2010 Spanish GP
Hamilton in 2nd place has rim failure - loses 18 points
Button goes from 6th to 5th - gains 2 points
2010 Monaco GP
Button in 10th has his engine overheat - loses 1 point
Hamilton in 5th - gains 0 points
2010 Hungarian GP
Hamilton in 4th place retires with transmission problems - loses 12 points
Button goes from 9th to 8th - gains 1 point
2010 Japanese GP
Hamilton has gearbox issues and goes from 4th to 5th - loses 2 points
Button is promoted from 5th to 4th - gains 2 points
2010 Net Gains/Losses - Hamilton lost 32 points, Button gained 4 points
2010 Adjusted Result
Hamiton 272 points
Button 210 points
2011 British GP
Button has loose wheel after a pit stop while in 2nd - loses 18 points
Hamilton goes from 5th to 4th - gains 2 points
2011 German GP
Button has hydraulics problem while in 6th - loses 8 points
Hamilton in 1st - gains 0 points
2011 Brazilian GP
Hamilton retires with gearbox problem while in 6th - loses 8 points
Button in 4th - gains 0 points
2011 Net Gains/Losses - Button lost 26 points, Hamilton lost 6 points
2011 Adjusted Result
Button 296 points
Hamilton 233 points
2012 Bahrain GP
Button retires from 13th - loses 0 points
Hamilton in 8th - gains 0 points
2012 Italian GP
Button retires in 2nd place with fuel pressure problems - loses 18 points
Hamilton in 1st - gains 0 points
2012 Singapore GP
Hamilton in 1st retires with gearbox isses - loses 25 points
Button goes from 3rd to 2nd - gains 3 points
2012 Abu Dhabi GP
Hamilton in 1st retires with fiel pressure problems - loses 25 points
Button goes from 5th to 4th - gains 2 points
2012 Net Gains/Losses - Hamilton lost 50 points, Button lost 13 points
2012 Adjusted Result
Hamilton 240 points
Button 201 points
2010-2012 Net Gains/Losses - Hamilton lost 88 points, Button lost 35 points
2010-2012 Adjusted Result
Hamilton 745 points
Button 707 points
I realise this is pretty pointless and even a bad analysis. Still it offers a small insight into who had the lion's share of bad luck. I didn't include being taken out by a competitors because their more difficult to judge, especially assigning blame and can be more open to my Hamilton bias (), I didn't include slow pit stops or fuel-gate (Spain 2012) because again it's difficult to say where they might have finished. However at a quick glance while their were in the points Hamilton was taken out 4 times when it wasn't his fault, Button once but I haven't looked at gains/losses and some people might not agree with my assignment of blame. In conclusion looks like they both had their fair share of bad luck, but Hamilton bore the brunt of it.
2010 Spanish GP
Hamilton in 2nd place has rim failure - loses 18 points
Button goes from 6th to 5th - gains 2 points
2010 Monaco GP
Button in 10th has his engine overheat - loses 1 point
Hamilton in 5th - gains 0 points
2010 Hungarian GP
Hamilton in 4th place retires with transmission problems - loses 12 points
Button goes from 9th to 8th - gains 1 point
2010 Japanese GP
Hamilton has gearbox issues and goes from 4th to 5th - loses 2 points
Button is promoted from 5th to 4th - gains 2 points
2010 Net Gains/Losses - Hamilton lost 32 points, Button gained 4 points
2010 Adjusted Result
Hamiton 272 points
Button 210 points
2011 British GP
Button has loose wheel after a pit stop while in 2nd - loses 18 points
Hamilton goes from 5th to 4th - gains 2 points
2011 German GP
Button has hydraulics problem while in 6th - loses 8 points
Hamilton in 1st - gains 0 points
2011 Brazilian GP
Hamilton retires with gearbox problem while in 6th - loses 8 points
Button in 4th - gains 0 points
2011 Net Gains/Losses - Button lost 26 points, Hamilton lost 6 points
2011 Adjusted Result
Button 296 points
Hamilton 233 points
2012 Bahrain GP
Button retires from 13th - loses 0 points
Hamilton in 8th - gains 0 points
2012 Italian GP
Button retires in 2nd place with fuel pressure problems - loses 18 points
Hamilton in 1st - gains 0 points
2012 Singapore GP
Hamilton in 1st retires with gearbox isses - loses 25 points
Button goes from 3rd to 2nd - gains 3 points
2012 Abu Dhabi GP
Hamilton in 1st retires with fiel pressure problems - loses 25 points
Button goes from 5th to 4th - gains 2 points
2012 Net Gains/Losses - Hamilton lost 50 points, Button lost 13 points
2012 Adjusted Result
Hamilton 240 points
Button 201 points
2010-2012 Net Gains/Losses - Hamilton lost 88 points, Button lost 35 points
2010-2012 Adjusted Result
Hamilton 745 points
Button 707 points
I realise this is pretty pointless and even a bad analysis. Still it offers a small insight into who had the lion's share of bad luck. I didn't include being taken out by a competitors because their more difficult to judge, especially assigning blame and can be more open to my Hamilton bias (
), I didn't include slow pit stops or fuel-gate (Spain 2012) because again it's difficult to say where they might have finished. However at a quick glance while their were in the points Hamilton was taken out 4 times when it wasn't his fault, Button once but I haven't looked at gains/losses and some people might not agree with my assignment of blame. In conclusion looks like they both had their fair share of bad luck, but Hamilton bore the brunt of it.
Why is it Lewis's car breaks down so much more often when he's leading than others? It really is one of F1's little mysterys. I remember Jean Alesi used to suffer the same thing.
RasputinLives. I've wondered about that, too, but in each case the team have analysed the failure, got to the bottom of it and explained the root cause of the mechanical failure for and to us and so I don't ponder on it any more. It seems to be nothing more than poor luck on Lewis' part. Schumacher had the worst luck of all in this department this year but enjoyed the best of reliability in his glory days.
It has happened twice. It happened to Vettel half as often...
Why does Lewis's car break down more often than Jenson's, a good question and I don't have the answer but I do remember that Takuma Sato's car used to break down more often than Jenson's when they were at BAR together and the team could not figure out why, and the only explanation they could come up with was that Sato was a more aggressive driver than Jenson and so overstressed the car to the point of breaking it.
Maybe Lewis suffers from the same problem and in which case most of his mechanical failures can be said to be his own fault which would negate no-FIAt-please 's earlier post about loss of points being down to bad luck.
There is an old army saying "Look after your equipment and your equipment will look after you."
A lesson to be learned there I believe...
Maybe Lewis suffers from the same problem and in which case most of his mechanical failures can be said to be his own fault which would negate no-FIAt-please 's earlier post about loss of points being down to bad luck.
There is an old army saying "Look after your equipment and your equipment will look after you."
A lesson to be learned there I believe...
I don't really see how you can just say that a driver has lost x number of points when you do not know where he would have finished had he lasted out the race. Monaco Button qualified in eighth position, he retired in tenth because he had engine trouble during the first lap. Most probably this was why he dropped ack during that lap. Also to two drivers above him were Schumacher and Rosberg, there would have been a very good chance of Button passing one or both of these. On the other hand he might not have passed either whilst losing a place to Alonso.
Also how do you take into account McLaren sending Button onto the pit lane for a cold, wet qualifying session where he had to wait a considerable time before the lights went green? It was known that he would have difficulty keeping his tyres up to temperature on his out lap, there was no chance of him getting them up to temperature from stone cold.
Was Button having a slow tyres change which put him behind at least one Renault when a normal one would have put him in front of it? What about the knock on from that?
We just don't know what would have happened had the circumstances been different.
Also how do you take into account McLaren sending Button onto the pit lane for a cold, wet qualifying session where he had to wait a considerable time before the lights went green? It was known that he would have difficulty keeping his tyres up to temperature on his out lap, there was no chance of him getting them up to temperature from stone cold.
Was Button having a slow tyres change which put him behind at least one Renault when a normal one would have put him in front of it? What about the knock on from that?
We just don't know what would have happened had the circumstances been different.
Bill Boddy Hence I said it wasn't a perfect analysis. As for the pit lane call, I don't know which race your on about but even if Button did sacrifice tyre temprature he would have gained track position for his lap by the sound of it. I didn't include bad strategy calls like that for a reason.
Mephistopheles I don't think it's his treatment of the car, people said the same of Vettel in 2010. Just bad luck I reckon.
Mephistopheles I don't think it's his treatment of the car, people said the same of Vettel in 2010. Just bad luck I reckon.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Personally, I thought that no-FIAt-please did a very good job of leaving out the more debatable instances of poor pit-stops, etc. from his analysis and paints a highly likely scenario. If one wants to factor in those what if's as well we would not only have a much muddier picture but also one that would no doubt throw avid fans of either driver into utter apoplexy.
As for one driver over stressing his car, I suggest that that has pretty much been designed out of F1 by the tech reg's and current technology in F1. Engine rev's are regulated and capped at well below their capability so they can't be over-revved. Gear selection, whilst not totally automatic, is done by the car and the driver can only "tell" the car what gear he wants with his paddles and the car does the rest. So, apart from hurtling over kerbs and bumping into things, we are left with only one other area in which the driver can overstress the car. Perhaps he just drives it too bloomin' fast.
As for one driver over stressing his car, I suggest that that has pretty much been designed out of F1 by the tech reg's and current technology in F1. Engine rev's are regulated and capped at well below their capability so they can't be over-revved. Gear selection, whilst not totally automatic, is done by the car and the driver can only "tell" the car what gear he wants with his paddles and the car does the rest. So, apart from hurtling over kerbs and bumping into things, we are left with only one other area in which the driver can overstress the car. Perhaps he just drives it too bloomin' fast.
Fenderman whilst I know what you are saying the most important factor in Sato's breakdowns was his late braking and the amount of engine braking he used combined with downshifts we all know that Lewis loves to brake late which is why he is good at circuits that have this characteristic such a Canada and Monza, combine this with the fact that there are only eight engines allowed in a season, taking care of the engine is an important part of not destroying it or the rest of the car...
This is called thinking about the whole picture and not focusing on one race or one qualifying session...
This is called thinking about the whole picture and not focusing on one race or one qualifying session...
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Mephistopheles I made no direct reference to Sato at all and I would suggest it was much easier to break a car when he was racing than it is now. As far as I'm aware late braking is not likely to have been the cause of either his problems or any current driver, since the only extreme consequences of that are to lock the brakes, lose front end grip and run out road. As far as damage is concerned, excessive use of the brakes will either overheat them, wear them out, or at worst set the lubricants on fire with the possibility of cooking other vulnerable parts of the car. Since I have not witnessed Hamilton's brakes going up in flames I think I am fairly safe ground when I say that the worst case scenario hasn't happened.
As far as the engine is concerned, I may be wrong but excluding fuel issues, I don't recall a McLaren engine failure, at least not this season. Can't remember further back than that!
As far as the engine is concerned, I may be wrong but excluding fuel issues, I don't recall a McLaren engine failure, at least not this season. Can't remember further back than that!
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