Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[RickD]

We should take into account Lewis being taken out in Spa and the appalling reliability and mechanical woes encountered since Singapore.

That statement is disingenious and one of the reasons non-Lewis fans (that sounds wrong as I simply mean those that are not die-hard Lewis fans such as the last 5 or so posters), get a little hacked off. There are lots odf ifs/buts and maybes in life and NONE of them change the facts.

The rest of your posts just goes onto more excuses with some ridiculous comparison with Trulli.

The fact is that all the time you spend belittling Jenson, you are actually saying that Lewis isn't all that good and that these aren't amongst the best drivers in the world. I am guessing that is not your aim, but that is what comes across..

 

[Hamberg]

I guess, he 'visioned' a load of non existent WMD's and 'visioned' that extroadinary rendition is acceptable practice for the UK.

Okay I'll delete that from my post

 

[Hamberg]

The fact is that all the time you spend belittling Jenson

How come every post now where people are disagreeing that Jenson is as good as Lewis is dismissed as belittling him?

 

[RickD]

Try reading the post I quoted part of..

 

[Hamberg]

I did and how is that belittling Jenson? It's attempting to rationalise why the gap isn't that great at the moment by talking about Lewis' woes, he's not said Button is shit has he? He's said realistically in his opinion Button isn't a match.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Belittling a driver is not that same, RickD, as measuring him to be less than your own measurement of him.

 

[RickD]

Hamberg - Talking about Lewis as though he's had some major issues this year without mentioning the fact that Jenson struggled with setup for quite a few races this year is disingenious and belittling to both drivers. The fact that you only picked up on one word in my post says it all really.

ExtremeNinja - Your own measurement of a driver is meaningless and introduces bias, which we all have to some degree and ends up BELITTLING the acheivements of others (emphasis there for a reason ).

 

[Josh]

Jenson may have had issues with his setup for quite a few races this year but that it, in part at least, his own fault while a lot of Hamilton's problems are not his own.

 

[Hamberg]

RickD I picked up on it because I'm getting fed up with that word being thrown around as it is beginning to.

Setup issues involve the driver as much as anyone and therefore I don't think you can use those. When comparing non finishes or points impact it's only fair to do it where there is structural/mechanical damage to a car which is what Snowy referred to. Are you disputing Hamilton hasn't seen more of a negative impact here?

Being taken out again slightly subjective as the response could be - qualify higher then, but only where the team mate qualified higher than the one being taken out.

 

[snowy]

RickD I am pretty sure I rate Jenson Button very highly, and have a track record of appreciating his talents and not underestimating him. I don't believe it is disingenuous to extrapolate that Lewis would have scored substantially more points than Jenson in the last few races were it not for mechanical problems. Despite Jenson having his own mechanical woes in the last few races one cannot reasonably infer that he would have scored more points than Lewis in that specific period.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

ExtremeNinja - Your own measurement of a driver is meaningless and introduces bias, which we all have to some degree and ends up BELITTLING the acheivements of others (emphasis there for a reason ).

I am not sure I understand or agree with whatever it is you are trying to say. Perhaps you could rephrase...

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I think I've got you. Are you saying that bias rules appraisal or that appraisal rules bias? In my opinion - and in terms of the latter, if appraisal is objective then the bias is healthy.

 

[FB]

Pride comes before a fall, as they say. Jenson may have to eat his words about making Mclaren 'His team' and stop acting like the cat that got the cream, when the boot's on the other foot. Will he be able to stand the Mexican heat, or will he have to get out of the kitchen?

Bloody hell Chad have you just picked up a copy of "The Big Book of Metaphors" from The Works?

 

[RickD]

ExtremeNinja - Yes, bias does rule appraisal. Bias is not healthy in the slightest when discussing facts.

snowy - In the context of your post, it was tiotally disingenious to see the merits of one side of the argument without looking at the other side.

Josh - I kind of agree that a lot of Jensons p[roblems have been his own, but I also think a lot of Lewis' have been self inflicted to a degree, not all of them before anyone jumps on that, but at least some of them.

 

[Hamberg]

You are trying to compare Hamilton's mechanical failures this season (snowy's disingenious [sic] post) with set up issues, which is wrong.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

If anything, the mechanical issues that Hamilton has suffered and the way he has been able to drive around them surely count in his favour. In the last three races he has finished with mechanical rear suspension problems twice and driven a first stint changing gear with one hand. Each time he has finished in the points.

 

[MCLS]

2010 - Hamilton lost roughly 50 points in terms of DNF's. Button lost roughly 25
2011 - Hamilton lost 30 points, Button lost around the same
2012 so far - Hamilton lost around 55 points, Button around 25-30.

In terms of pure DNF's (taking out who the fault was for the DNF) Hamilton has lost a lot more points than Button. It also highlights that in 2010 and 2012, years when Hamilton was able to compete for the Championship from the start, he's lost a massive amount of points, half the time through no fault of his own either

 

[Hamberg]

If anything, the mechanical issues that Hamilton has suffered and the way he has been able to drive around them surely count in his favour. In the last three races he has finished with mechanical rear suspension problems twice and driven a first stint changing gear with one hand. Each time he has finished in the points.

Which actually becomes fairly difficult to measure as it falls into the what if as he actually finished the races.
To be fair though, his starts have been pretty shit and I had no doubt JB was going to be ahead on the first lap.

 

[Lewywo4]

I was appalled by the article in this weeks Autosport (Oct 25th) by Edd Straw "JENSON, IT'S MY TEAM NOW"

I suspect that the working title for this particular piece of feces was: "HAMILTON: MY PART IN HIS DOWNFALL".

I've yet to receive my Autosport (Oct 25th) issue, and I'm not at all suprised, by any article written by Edd Straw that would have a negative tone towards Lewis.

 

[racecub]

Jenson feels the need to advise Lewis on the difficulties of moving to a new team, building said team around you and helping the team achieve good results. I wonder, does Jenson think Lewis has not been achieving good results for McLaren? button does nothing to persuade me I was wrong in my views of him, he sounds pompous and full of himself.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103917?source=mostpopular

Lewis still sounds very upbeat about his move, very excited about it, which bodes well.