The first bit is bollocks, anti-finger/anti-running away with it maybe, but definitely not anti-German.
I also believe he has shaken off the second of your criticisms to a large extent but this was fairly thrown at him in 2010, less so in 2011.
How Good is Sebastian Vettel?
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The first bit is bollocks, anti-finger/anti-running away with it maybe, but definitely not anti-German.
I also believe he has shaken off the second of your criticisms to a large extent but this was fairly thrown at him in 2010, less so in 2011.
Top teammate? like Alonso and Hamilton you mean? Can I just point out that in the last four seasons (lets include this one) Sebs team mate has completely out scored any of his rivals and unlike his rivals has been a genuine championship contender. So thats poppycock.
Also using his one entire mistake of last season to prove he 'cracks under pressure' is a bit harsh considering how he pulled his first title back from nowhere.
As for the blame the car thing. Are you kidding me? If we ruled out every driver who blamed the car for their mistakes then no onez great. His rivals have been in all sorts if dark places and having their team move their teammate out the way over the last few years.
Also using his one entire mistake of last season to prove he 'cracks under pressure' is a bit harsh considering how he pulled his first title back from nowhere.
As for the blame the car thing. Are you kidding me? If we ruled out every driver who blamed the car for their mistakes then no onez great. His rivals have been in all sorts if dark places and having their team move their teammate out the way over the last few years.
40% any F1 champion ever 60% car
What was subjective about Seb's career path Rasputin? That's what actually happened didn't it?
As for your suppositions, they don't really hold up to scrutiny.
Why did the double-WDC fall out with his team? Because he was getting beat.
Why did the team focus on him in 2008? Because it was more than obvious he was their only chance.
He beat Nando in the same car, why would he need him to be in an uncompetitive one?
And in actuality, I think it has become pretty obvious that 2007 didn't do Lewis any favors in the long run.
First off, his unbelievable entry into the sport created a legion of F1 watchers that would despise his every move for the totality of his career. Rookies aren't supposed to collect 9 podiums in their first 9 races you know!!! You're supposed to work your way up the ladder!!! I firmly believe his initial success is what has made people revel so heartily in his failures since then.
Second, despite his nearly impeccable driving for the vast majority of the season, 2007 is remembered as an abject failure by most people because of the single most delayed pit stop of all time, not to mention the 40 second "glitch" in his ECU. The often remarkable drives in his rookie campaign are largely ignored to this day.
Finally, Hamilton has yet to enjoy a single race in a car as dominant as the ones Vettel has been sat in for roughly 3/4 of his career. And I'm not sure its actually "lucky" to have your first car be the best car you ever drove. Seb's cars got progressively better as his career went along.
You couldn't have possibly laid down a better career path for Young Vettel. He's had every chance and every advantage. As far as I'm concerned there aren't any comparisons. And once again, this is not to say he's not a fantastic pilot, just extremely fortunate.
As for your suppositions, they don't really hold up to scrutiny.
Why did the double-WDC fall out with his team? Because he was getting beat.
Why did the team focus on him in 2008? Because it was more than obvious he was their only chance.
He beat Nando in the same car, why would he need him to be in an uncompetitive one?
And in actuality, I think it has become pretty obvious that 2007 didn't do Lewis any favors in the long run.
First off, his unbelievable entry into the sport created a legion of F1 watchers that would despise his every move for the totality of his career. Rookies aren't supposed to collect 9 podiums in their first 9 races you know!!! You're supposed to work your way up the ladder!!! I firmly believe his initial success is what has made people revel so heartily in his failures since then.
Second, despite his nearly impeccable driving for the vast majority of the season, 2007 is remembered as an abject failure by most people because of the single most delayed pit stop of all time, not to mention the 40 second "glitch" in his ECU. The often remarkable drives in his rookie campaign are largely ignored to this day.
Finally, Hamilton has yet to enjoy a single race in a car as dominant as the ones Vettel has been sat in for roughly 3/4 of his career. And I'm not sure its actually "lucky" to have your first car be the best car you ever drove. Seb's cars got progressively better as his career went along.
You couldn't have possibly laid down a better career path for Young Vettel. He's had every chance and every advantage. As far as I'm concerned there aren't any comparisons. And once again, this is not to say he's not a fantastic pilot, just extremely fortunate.
Doesn't that speak to the dominance of the car? Or is Webber the second best driver?
Like your previous post, you seem to disregard the fact that all cars are not created equally. To say that its always 40-60 (or whatever % you want to use) fails to recognize the fact that some championship cars are more dominant than others. Some drivers have even won the title in an inferior car. Surely the driver would be given more credit in such a scenario.
So apparently, YOUR supposition is that Vettel has had nothing to do with the car being so "dominant". There is no way to prove whether the car is biggest factor or the driver. Presenting as fact one version or the other is merely a reflection of personal bias and fandom, and therefore, neither view has more validity than the other.
Seriously Siffert?
How many more times do I have to say it. Vettel is a superb driver. However, I happen to believe that he's doing what other top drivers would be expected to do in RBR machinery.
How many more times do I have to say it. Vettel is a superb driver. However, I happen to believe that he's doing what other top drivers would be expected to do in RBR machinery.
Il_leone
World Champion
RasputinLives
Yes paired with a world champion and one who is going to be consistent
...Webber was not at the races last year...and therefore he did not have a teammate who is capable of consistently points off him like Button and Hamilton do to each other and certainly Alonso and HAmilton did in 2007
Bar Canada last year when in previous years he would have been buried in a gravel trap rather than extra escape road to 2nd
he was very messy at Germany where home pressure and questions asked whether he was being favoured got to him..even this season he's had a few ragged races like Sepang and Hockenheim when things don't go well
People will always question whether it was because of Newey or is it him that makes Red Bull better than it should ..plus Red Bull did not want to put Seb against Lewis as teammates still leaves questions unanswered but maybe he will change people's opinions of him at Ferrari in 2014 possibly
Yes paired with a world champion and one who is going to be consistent
...Webber was not at the races last year...and therefore he did not have a teammate who is capable of consistently points off him like Button and Hamilton do to each other and certainly Alonso and HAmilton did in 2007
Bar Canada last year when in previous years he would have been buried in a gravel trap rather than extra escape road to 2nd
he was very messy at Germany where home pressure and questions asked whether he was being favoured got to him..even this season he's had a few ragged races like Sepang and Hockenheim when things don't go well
People will always question whether it was because of Newey or is it him that makes Red Bull better than it should ..plus Red Bull did not want to put Seb against Lewis as teammates still leaves questions unanswered but maybe he will change people's opinions of him at Ferrari in 2014 possibly
And I happen to believe that Vettel would have at least matched Hamilton's acheivements if their roles were reversed.
Possibly. But they're not. And it's to Seb's eternal benefit.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
Didn't James Hunt in the 70s say that it's 80% car, 20% driver? I can't imagine that is more down to the driver nowadays.
If it's 80% car in Vettels' case, then it's probably 81 or 82% in Webbers' case. That would explain the difference between them in the past three years.
But more likely for the drivers nowadays it's maximum 15% driver (for the top drivers).
David Coulthard said it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...on-Button-should-win-is-Team-of-the-Year.html
There was a bit of a discussion on it... http://cliptheapex.com/threads/brian-moores-telegraph-sport-column-button-is-only-20.524/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...on-Button-should-win-is-Team-of-the-Year.html
There was a bit of a discussion on it... http://cliptheapex.com/threads/brian-moores-telegraph-sport-column-button-is-only-20.524/
We could have the discussion over car vs driver and luck vs skill all day. The variables will never be equal so you have to look at who gets results. If we don't look at this season we can compare using this.
Vettel has had three season in a car with the potential to win the title and has won 2
Lewis has had three seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and has won one
Fernando has had four seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and won two
Button has had two seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and won one
Webber has had three seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and won none
say what you like but Seb takes his chances better than anyone in the field.
And @keke I was interest to see you all countered my luck argument on the Lewis side
This not rating Seb isn't because you'd rather see Lewis at the front is it?
Probably isn't in your case but its true Seb doesn't get his dues because Lewis and Fernando are the more exciting to watch. I mean taking pole and leading every lap? who wants to see that eh?
Vettel has had three season in a car with the potential to win the title and has won 2
Lewis has had three seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and has won one
Fernando has had four seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and won two
Button has had two seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and won one
Webber has had three seasons in a car with the potential to win the title and won none
say what you like but Seb takes his chances better than anyone in the field.
And @keke I was interest to see you all countered my luck argument on the Lewis side
This not rating Seb isn't because you'd rather see Lewis at the front is it?
Probably isn't in your case but its true Seb doesn't get his dues because Lewis and Fernando are the more exciting to watch. I mean taking pole and leading every lap? who wants to see that eh?
Il_leone
World Champion
RasputinLives
I think you forget that Vettel did win one season in the most dominant car that anyone has seen since 2004 and it was a watershed whereas the others have had to fight more for their titles
I think you forget that Vettel did win one season in the most dominant car that anyone has seen since 2004 and it was a watershed whereas the others have had to fight more for their titles
RBR drivers finished 1st and 3rd in the WDC in 2011. Ferrari drivers finished 1st and 2nd in 2004, with Barrichello finishing 29 points (in a 10-8-6 system) clear of 3rd place.
I think this can illustrate that Vettel was just untouchable last year, and that while the RBR was undoubtedly the best car, it did not have the overwhelming advantage that the Ferrari's of '02 and '04 had.
We don't need any comments which go all meta and start to discuss the nature of arguing, nor do we need unflattering comparisons or accusations of shutting down debate.
So don't do it.
So don't do it.
landogeorgelewis1
Champion Elect
Can I just point out that Sebastian Vettel can be as good as he wants to be. His talent is there and I think he'll continue to improve into a really big superstar of the sport.
I think he already is the big superstar of the sport.
HammydiRestarules said "a", RasputinLives misqouted as "the".
ExtremeNinja says "I think he is already a big superstar of the sport.
Not sure if that is one for the pedantry thread or if the intention of my text differs to that of RasputinLives.
ExtremeNinja says "I think he is already a big superstar of the sport.
Not sure if that is one for the pedantry thread or if the intention of my text differs to that of RasputinLives.
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