How Good is Sebastian Vettel?
- Thread starter teabagyokel
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This discussion reminds me of a post on 6-0-6 back in 2009 which was a spoof letter to the Daily Mail in 1963 (It might have even been posted by The Artist.....) which was complaining about the fact that Jim Clark won 70% of the races that year and how it wasn't fair as his car was obviously so much better than everyone else's etc, etc, in relation to Button's dominance that year.
Plus ca change...
Plus ca change...
Vettel is 8th on Murray Walker's all time list. Alonso and Hamilton are 10th and 15th respectively. However he mentions how impressive Vettel's stats are and then on Stirling Moss' section it says that "statistics count only for so much". 
mnmracer
Points Scorer
I couldn't help but feel they were trying to cover from the backlash they knew was coming from the drones of British fans who can't stand Vettel. Juan Manuel Fangio, a guy who changed to faster cars mid-season, is top 2, and Vettel somehow has to defend himself for driving a fast car? It's all utterly ridiculous double standards.Vettel is 8th on Murray Walker's all time list. Alonso and Hamilton are 10th and 15th respectively. However he mentions how impressive Vettel's stats are and then on Stirling Moss' section it says that "statistics count only for so much".
In my opinion, Vettel doesn't have to defend himself from anybody. He just needs to keep doing what he is doing. The problem is, that until it is evident that he has been tested in inferior machinery and triumphed, there will many people who will attribute much of his success to the circumstances under which he has achieved it. That is by no means his fault, but it is natural that the critics and analysts will feel that they need a little more to chew on or will be left still feeling unsatisfied.
It is not wrong of anyone to question Vettel's ability against his peers as it is not wrong for anyone to question the ability of the engineering and strategy departments against other teams.
Success is achieved through a number of factors, of which the driver is one. It is much easier to measure the two variables of equipment and strategy because they are more evident and easier to observe. there is a yardstick in their team-mate, where the car, to some extent, is a constant. The remaining driver variable is much more difficult to make a judgement on and so it requires messing around with the other variables considerably before you can come to a conclusion. What is evident in measuring the driver variable is that Vettel is a more capable driver, at least in the Red Bull environment, than Mark Webber. What is not evident is how he would measure against a Alonso or a Hamilton (or another driver of your choosing) if we diminish the strategy and the engineering values.
We have seen both Hamilton and Alonso achieve fantastic results and wins where the strategy or engineering has let them down. We haven't seen this from Vettel. This is not necessarily because he is incapable, but because he just hasn't had to face that test as a mature driver.
So when people ask this question, and indeed why this thread was created, it is not to knock Vettel or denigrate his achievements but more likely because there is missing evidence to reach a solid conclusion of Vettel's ability in comparison to his peers.
It is not wrong of anyone to question Vettel's ability against his peers as it is not wrong for anyone to question the ability of the engineering and strategy departments against other teams.
Success is achieved through a number of factors, of which the driver is one. It is much easier to measure the two variables of equipment and strategy because they are more evident and easier to observe. there is a yardstick in their team-mate, where the car, to some extent, is a constant. The remaining driver variable is much more difficult to make a judgement on and so it requires messing around with the other variables considerably before you can come to a conclusion. What is evident in measuring the driver variable is that Vettel is a more capable driver, at least in the Red Bull environment, than Mark Webber. What is not evident is how he would measure against a Alonso or a Hamilton (or another driver of your choosing) if we diminish the strategy and the engineering values.
We have seen both Hamilton and Alonso achieve fantastic results and wins where the strategy or engineering has let them down. We haven't seen this from Vettel. This is not necessarily because he is incapable, but because he just hasn't had to face that test as a mature driver.
So when people ask this question, and indeed why this thread was created, it is not to knock Vettel or denigrate his achievements but more likely because there is missing evidence to reach a solid conclusion of Vettel's ability in comparison to his peers.
He is as good as the car he drives, make of that what you will..
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
He doesn't always qualify on pole or the first row, but hasn't achieved wins from further down than 3rd. So has had opportunities tfor fantastic drives.
Although you could argue that in general the RBR is better in qualifying than the race, so in general is hard to improve from your qualifying result, while McLaren and Ferrari often tend to be better in race than qualifying, so it's easier to improve.
Or he has been as good as the cars he's driven (most of the time). More than that, we do not know.
ATL11
Pole Sitter
With Vettel would he only be seen as being greater if he does indeed go to Ferrari in 2014, with 4 World Drivers Championship titles under his belt! Then drag a Ferrari that can only seem to go so far even with Alonso to take both titles in 2014?
Wonder if this is what Hamilton is trying to do 1 year earlier, oh so many questions.
Wonder if this is what Hamilton is trying to do 1 year earlier, oh so many questions.
I think the situation is different with Hamilton. He has demonstrated on many occasions some of the things that people still question Vettel over. I think that he has just come to a realisation that McLaren are not matching up to his expectations and if he were to sit still there then he is not going to realise his potential. He wants to win and has taken a gamble in Mercedes after losing faith in McLaren. I don't blame him.
Many of the criteria that people say Vettel needs to fulfill to be great are the same as those levelled at others for opposing reasons.
One that springs to mind is that Button is unable to put the car on pole and win.
The Red Bull did not seem to have the magic in quali early this year, yet Vettel is still there, after maximising his position, and despite occurences like Valencia. I cannot say for certain, but I have a feeling that if it was a different driver, this would be looked at very differently.
in 2010 he was never in the lead until the very end, and pulled it off, he could have lost it, considering the number of points he lost earlier in the season, but he kept on it. As did the team.
Hakkinen won 2 WDC in a Newey car, yet he is highly regarded, although his campaigns were assisted by DC and MS breaking a leg.
Dare I say it, I think there are those who simply resent his success, and therefore fit reasons around it, all perfectly reasonable reasons on face value, but if you start from a particular premise, you can find all sorts of ways to justify them.
So what if he has ended up in the best car? Many have fallen long before they make it, the Red Bull young driver programme seems to be rather unforgiving of underperformance, besides, I am sure he would not be there if he was not capable of winning.
I cannot help thinking that it does not really matter what he achieves, opinion is unlikely to change.
One that springs to mind is that Button is unable to put the car on pole and win.
The Red Bull did not seem to have the magic in quali early this year, yet Vettel is still there, after maximising his position, and despite occurences like Valencia. I cannot say for certain, but I have a feeling that if it was a different driver, this would be looked at very differently.
in 2010 he was never in the lead until the very end, and pulled it off, he could have lost it, considering the number of points he lost earlier in the season, but he kept on it. As did the team.
Hakkinen won 2 WDC in a Newey car, yet he is highly regarded, although his campaigns were assisted by DC and MS breaking a leg.
Dare I say it, I think there are those who simply resent his success, and therefore fit reasons around it, all perfectly reasonable reasons on face value, but if you start from a particular premise, you can find all sorts of ways to justify them.
So what if he has ended up in the best car? Many have fallen long before they make it, the Red Bull young driver programme seems to be rather unforgiving of underperformance, besides, I am sure he would not be there if he was not capable of winning.
I cannot help thinking that it does not really matter what he achieves, opinion is unlikely to change.
It has to be added, The Pits, that whilst Vettel has appeared at the end or "still been there", the reason he has not been leading in these scenarios is often due to car reliability rather than car performance. You only have to look at Valencia this year for that, although there are many other races where you can say the same.
I am sure opinion will change if, as I said, the critics are given an opportunity to measure him against his peers as an entity separate from his team and equipment. All we can say now is that Vettel and Red Bull are a formidable combination. If we are not given that opportunity then, despite his achievements, many will not give him the credit that he or some of his ardent fans will feel that he deserves.
He wouldn't be the first to find himself in this situation, either. Perhaps he doesn't care but there will always be critics on both sides of the fence and also straddling it that do.
I am sure opinion will change if, as I said, the critics are given an opportunity to measure him against his peers as an entity separate from his team and equipment. All we can say now is that Vettel and Red Bull are a formidable combination. If we are not given that opportunity then, despite his achievements, many will not give him the credit that he or some of his ardent fans will feel that he deserves.
He wouldn't be the first to find himself in this situation, either. Perhaps he doesn't care but there will always be critics on both sides of the fence and also straddling it that do.
Incubus
Champion Elect
It really is very simple.
Vettel inthe past 3 years has done everything he could have done and is already a great.
He also has done it in the pace-setting car. So he is a great but we don't just how great.
He may be the greatest current driver but we have no way of knowing
Simple when you think about it.
Vettel inthe past 3 years has done everything he could have done and is already a great.
He also has done it in the pace-setting car. So he is a great but we don't just how great.
He may be the greatest current driver but we have no way of knowing
Simple when you think about it.
Hence, the reason for this thread. The problem is that there is little evidence that he would measure up against his peers were it not for dominant equipment. That leaves us with only speculation about the extent of his ability. So here we are, speculating... and to some extent trying to make sense of that concept.
I don't disagree, but the great drivers are also measured by what they did in the years where they did not win championships and did not have the best cars.
Indeed.
In hand with that, some WDC winners are most definitely not considered to be great drivers and in fact some of them are considered to be quite poor and it was only the car which enabled them to win.
Furthermore, some of the greats never even won a championship or had the equipment to do so.
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