How Good is Sebastian Vettel?
- Thread starter teabagyokel
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Raikkonen&Redbull=PartyTime
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This is not the first time I have come across this motivation for Vettel's success. While it is certainly true that Adrian Newey has played a significant part in his overall success, isn't it a bit reductionist to apportion the lump sum of it to his doorstep?
As we have seen this year, Formula 1 success depends on every component of a team functioning to its maximum potential. When this takes place, the team affords itself the opportunity of winning races and championships by facilitating the best possible circumstances for their 'weapon of choice', be it Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or someone else.
One could make a case for all of the drivers having been affected in this regard this year, some to greater degrees than others. Hamilton is the most obvious, as McLaren's operational issues clearly hampered an otherwise fairly exemplary performance from the driver. Ferrari were fantastic support for Alonso, apart from not developing the fastest car on the grid. Raikkonen was not supported by great pitwork or strategy at times. Vettel's car was not bulletproof or consistent at times.
I am certain Adrian Newey is a clever man, but I don't think he is anything like solely responsible for Red Bull's success, even within the sphere of aerodynamic design. There are not enough hours in the day for Newey to fully conceive a design on his own.
Red Bull may have a great lead designer in Newey, but they are a great team in every sense of the word and Vettel is a part of that team too, however insignificant his part may seem to some.
Yep, Brogan. I would, however, suggest that the driver is much more interchangeable than the equipment in the pursuit of success, though. based on that, I think it entirely right that the majority of the credit for Vettel's WDC is apportioned to Newey and the rest of the guys. there are plenty of drivers who would not have achieved what Vettel has in the same environment but I also think that there are a good hand-full that would have.
I can only defer to Coulthard who said "a driver contributes only 20 per cent to any victory".
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...on-Button-should-win-is-Team-of-the-Year.html)
Whether that is the exact figure though is another discussion.
Put it another way, if Webber had been the only driver in the team, would he have won the last three WDCs?
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...on-Button-should-win-is-Team-of-the-Year.html)
Whether that is the exact figure though is another discussion.
Put it another way, if Webber had been the only driver in the team, would he have won the last three WDCs?
At least two of them, I would have thought. I think the difference between Sebastian and Webber would have been the difference between a championship or otherwise in 2012. That said, I think that there are a couple of drivers who would have won by a bigger margin than Vettel in the impossible situation that all other variables remained the same.
Il_leone
World Champion
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How many KERS failures has Vettel had compared to Webber. Since when was the last time did Red Bull decide to give Mark a piece of Seb's car without asking him or tell Seb to back off
The luck that Vettel seems to get is good luck
The luck that Webber seems to get is bad luck
Il_leone
World Champion
Il_leone
World Champion
Bushi
Race Winner
In 2010 the luck was on Webber's site, with Sebastian having all the the mechanical trouble. Now Webber has 2 Kers problems and you make it look like they favor Seb for that. The wing situation is an old one and to again Webber didn't feel any advantage from it, he was just mad they took his candy away.
You mean that starting bad and loosing +/- 3-5 places at the start of 15 Gp's is bad luck?
Just look at Ferrari, they do everything to favor Alonso, yet nobody is bicthin about that, it's all Alonso.
Bushi
Race Winner
I think they used to say MotoGP is 30% bike and 70% driver. But a lot of electronics have been introduced in motogp by that time and some electronics have dissapeared from f1. So, those figures don't add up anymore. Like we could see the last 3 years with Rossi at Ducati. MotoGp has become F1 from '06-'09. So, i think that f1 is now more a 30-40% driver skill.
And i think without Vettel, Alonso would be a 4x champ and Button a 2x champ.
I find a gaping hole in the argument that driver x would have accomplished the same or more than Vettel in the Red Bull, and all of the credit for the team's success lies with Newey, because it presumes that Newey would be producing the same car, regardless of who the driver is, and that driver input has no bearing on the car's design or development. That seems highly unlikely to me, especially when a driver has been at a given team for more than one season and has, effectively, been given number one status in the team.
Therefore, I would think that it could be just as plausibly be argued that, say, Alonso is less adept than Vettel at discerning what needs changing on a car and providing the engineering team with ideas on how to acheive the desired results. As a result, Alonso has to drive around a car's weaknesses more than Vettel does.
That may not be the case, but I don't see how anyone without first-hand knowledge of the situation at the realtive teams can state with certainty whether that idea has some bearing or not.
Therefore, I would think that it could be just as plausibly be argued that, say, Alonso is less adept than Vettel at discerning what needs changing on a car and providing the engineering team with ideas on how to acheive the desired results. As a result, Alonso has to drive around a car's weaknesses more than Vettel does.
That may not be the case, but I don't see how anyone without first-hand knowledge of the situation at the realtive teams can state with certainty whether that idea has some bearing or not.
Worth noting that Mark Webber has never finished 2nd in the Championship.
And Webbers KERS fails too often for it to be just bad luck, in my opinion.
And Webbers KERS fails too often for it to be just bad luck, in my opinion.
But how good is "so good"?
...and that addition completes the circle and means that both the original question and your proposed question are the same thing.
Three championships in a row good.
...and if he had done that all in his own then that would have some meaning and close the debate. All it shows is that he's better than Mark Webber although it is easy to see that he is better than a lot of other drivers, too.
I don't think you can argue any driver has won a world title all on his own. Its always been a team effort. This current debate could be applied to any world champion in a Newy car, or a Chapman Lotus or even any car with a Honda engine in the late 80's. Or Schumacher even!
Mika Hakkenin always gets rated very highly yet his championships came in one season where he had an even more dominant car than Vettel did and another where his main rival broke his legs half way through the season. I guess circumstances and who people are up against depend on ratings.
I think the important thing for Sebastian is that Christian Horner and Adrian Newy think he's the best and as long as he keeps bringing home the bacon they'll continue too.
Mika Hakkenin always gets rated very highly yet his championships came in one season where he had an even more dominant car than Vettel did and another where his main rival broke his legs half way through the season. I guess circumstances and who people are up against depend on ratings.
I think the important thing for Sebastian is that Christian Horner and Adrian Newy think he's the best and as long as he keeps bringing home the bacon they'll continue too.
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