How Good is Sebastian Vettel?
- Thread starter teabagyokel
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It is possible to credit both the car and the driver and come to a balanced conclusion. Omitting either of these or taking offence at opinions which factor both would be to display a bias for one of the other.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
I could say Vettel won the championship despite the Renault engine, but I don't.
Yet whenever Alonso is discussed, it's always despite the car, and saying that the Ferrari was competitive enough to give Alonso the chances he took, like the Red Bull was, it is considered bias.
Yet whenever Alonso is discussed, it's always despite the car, and saying that the Ferrari was competitive enough to give Alonso the chances he took, like the Red Bull was, it is considered bias.
Reversing a car slowly away from a corner immediately after being smacked from the side (let's not start an argument about who was at fault) in the race that will decide whether you become a triple world champion takes supreme skill and amazing composure. This left him in last place with damage!
I think that Alonso over the entire season was the better driver and so perhaps deserved the title but you cannot fault Vettel for the way he took the season by the scruff of the neck and chased down Nando, albeit with the help of the Lotuses
I think that Alonso over the entire season was the better driver and so perhaps deserved the title but you cannot fault Vettel for the way he took the season by the scruff of the neck and chased down Nando, albeit with the help of the Lotuses
mnmracer. I wanted to avoid getting into this with you because I get the feeling that once you get your teeth into something you won't let go. At this point, although I have tried this before, I am going to bow out of our discussion. I have no interest in changing your opinion and I am certain that you won't change mine. Let's avoid a battle of who is right and who is wrong and just be happy with our own viewpoints.
To be clear on my viewpoint, and it is only my viewpoint, before I do exit. Red Bull and Vettel were better than Hamilton and McLaren, Alonso and Ferrari, as well as Kimi Raikonnen and Lotus. This squares perfectly with the results and makes the Vettel/Red Bull combo the best of the bunch and deservingly so (much better than the Red Bull/Webber combo, for your satisfaction).
If I had to judge the quality of the drivers over the season I would put Alonso and Hamilton joint top, followed by Raikonnen and then followed by Vettel. That doesn't take anything away from his achievement but simply acknowledges that even the drivers championship is a team sport.
Please do not feel the need to draw me into further discussion on this.
To be clear on my viewpoint, and it is only my viewpoint, before I do exit. Red Bull and Vettel were better than Hamilton and McLaren, Alonso and Ferrari, as well as Kimi Raikonnen and Lotus. This squares perfectly with the results and makes the Vettel/Red Bull combo the best of the bunch and deservingly so (much better than the Red Bull/Webber combo, for your satisfaction).
If I had to judge the quality of the drivers over the season I would put Alonso and Hamilton joint top, followed by Raikonnen and then followed by Vettel. That doesn't take anything away from his achievement but simply acknowledges that even the drivers championship is a team sport.
Please do not feel the need to draw me into further discussion on this.
Olivier
Race Winner
The F2012 was a really robust and reliable car. I don't know other cars, but the Ferrari didn't break a single time this year on race day. The only problem was that it was not as fast as the McLaren or the Red Bull, particularly at the beginning of the season and towards the end. A bit like a truck.
Vettel is not my cup of tea but he did the best with what he got and he's deservedly 3 times WDC. He is now up there with Senna and Brabham. Which one he resembles most is up to the observer.
I think the Ferrari's qualifying pace flattered the cars ahead of them, add to the fact it's been reliable all season bar Monza qualifying where Alonso would have finished 2nd at maximum.
A lot has been put in about Vettel's luck, and Hamilton's bad luck. If anyone had the most luck, it was Alonso, who inherited several positions when both of the above drivers have retired.
But he and the team have been there to capatlise, in my opinion out of the top four, they all deserved the title in their own way, don't think anyone 'deserved' it the most.
A lot has been put in about Vettel's luck, and Hamilton's bad luck. If anyone had the most luck, it was Alonso, who inherited several positions when both of the above drivers have retired.
But he and the team have been there to capatlise, in my opinion out of the top four, they all deserved the title in their own way, don't think anyone 'deserved' it the most.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
In F1 it's always the combination of driver and car.
Now there's a few things you need to do if you want to become WDC
1. get into a car that's capable of getting enough points to do so
2. (and just as important) beat you teammate
Vettel did both, three years in a row.
Out of 4 championship chances (2009-2012) he took 3. That's a good effort.
You can't really compare drivers in other cars, because we don't really know how to cars are relative to each other. If you want to know which driver is the best, you have to watch a spec series. In general I'd say in F1 it's about 80% car, 20% driver. Looking at RBR I'd say with Vettel it's something like that, but with Mark Webber it's something like 81% car, and 19% driver. Which explains the difference between them.
I'd say that Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are the top three drivers, and roughly equal, but maybe with some different strenghts and weaknesses.
I think it's kinda funny that Vettels' drive in Brasil is seen as a brilliant drive by some, because he got himself in the last position through his own errors (bad start and collision). Usually he maximised the result with the RBR, just like Alonso does with the Ferrari, but not in Brasil. Because the maximum result there, would have been ahead of Alonso.
But he did a very good job in correcting his error, and did just enough to become WDC for the third time, so kudos to him.
Now there's a few things you need to do if you want to become WDC
1. get into a car that's capable of getting enough points to do so
2. (and just as important) beat you teammate
Vettel did both, three years in a row.
Out of 4 championship chances (2009-2012) he took 3. That's a good effort.
You can't really compare drivers in other cars, because we don't really know how to cars are relative to each other. If you want to know which driver is the best, you have to watch a spec series. In general I'd say in F1 it's about 80% car, 20% driver. Looking at RBR I'd say with Vettel it's something like that, but with Mark Webber it's something like 81% car, and 19% driver. Which explains the difference between them.
I'd say that Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are the top three drivers, and roughly equal, but maybe with some different strenghts and weaknesses.
I think it's kinda funny that Vettels' drive in Brasil is seen as a brilliant drive by some, because he got himself in the last position through his own errors (bad start and collision). Usually he maximised the result with the RBR, just like Alonso does with the Ferrari, but not in Brasil. Because the maximum result there, would have been ahead of Alonso.
But he did a very good job in correcting his error, and did just enough to become WDC for the third time, so kudos to him.
For me Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are equal, even if they have different strengths. However I think when many people say Vettel's success is down to the car they mean that although he is extremely talented (as are Hamilton and Alonso) he wouldn't have had the same level of success in a McLaren or Ferrari, I don't think anyone can deny that Red Bull has been to the team to be at for the last 3 (probably 4) years. Not bashing Vettel simply pointing out that he's been the most successful driver in recent years because of his natural skill and the car advantage he's enjoyed.
Il_leone
World Champion
Such a delightfully predictable double standard. (delightfully predictable, not the double standard)
Il_leone
Did you know see the BBC homage that said Vettel had talent? Determination?
You know, the things we are apparently to believe he doesn't have.
I never said he did not have talent or determination but they highlighted luck as one of them says it all ... compare his whack to Hamilton's Vettel is able to carry in the race whilst Hamilton leading retires
Il_leone
World Champion
If someone wants to compare Vettel to Senna
Senna's steps to greatness
1) Impress in a midfield team and score points and podiums Toleman - he had an offer to join Williams but decided there would be too much pressure if he failed to impress
2) Get poles ,wins and podiums regularly in not the best car - Lotus Renault/ Lotus Honda - backed by Piquet's average performance in 1988 in the same car
3) Join the best team and take on and beat the best driver ( a world class teammate) at the time as teammate and taking the drivers title - Alain Prost at Mclaren
4) Defend the world title - Mclaren 1990-1991
5) Win regularly in an inferior car and take the drivers title - Mclaren 1991
6) Set all time records to be broken - never fulfilled this to cement his status
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Vettel still does not match to Senna to be the legend
Senna's steps to greatness
1) Impress in a midfield team and score points and podiums Toleman - he had an offer to join Williams but decided there would be too much pressure if he failed to impress
2) Get poles ,wins and podiums regularly in not the best car - Lotus Renault/ Lotus Honda - backed by Piquet's average performance in 1988 in the same car
3) Join the best team and take on and beat the best driver ( a world class teammate) at the time as teammate and taking the drivers title - Alain Prost at Mclaren
4) Defend the world title - Mclaren 1990-1991
5) Win regularly in an inferior car and take the drivers title - Mclaren 1991
6) Set all time records to be broken - never fulfilled this to cement his status
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Vettel still does not match to Senna to be the legend
mnmracer
Points Scorer
If you want to make a point, you should at least get your facts straight:
Though, if I am to understand you, there is only one legend? Senna is the legend?
- Pretty sure most people were impressed with a car that belonged even further back on the grid, yet Vettel made it to 4th.
Also, Vettel did not back out 'pressure to impress' as you put it . - fact-check Piquet drover the Lotus Honda 100T, not Senna's Lotus Honda 99T.
fact-check Also, this in a season in which the McLaren was so dominant it took all wins but 1. - fact-check Vettel joined an, at the time, inferior team.
Not sure how joining a better team is more stuff of legends.
Also, there are plenty of drivers acknowledged as legends without the 'x is better than y' argument. - fact-check Vettel now defended the world title twice.
- The argument brought forward is that Vettel only wins in a dominant car, because it wins the constructor's championship.
fact-check In 1991, McLaren won the constructor's championship one race before the end of the season.
fact-check Team-mate Gerhard Berger (who disagrees with your first point btw) finished 4th that year, much like Webber has been finishing 3rd/3rd/6th. So no, 'look where his team-mate finished'. - fact-check Even if you want to play the numbers game (though isn't your argument that it's not all about numbers), I'm pretty sure Vettel is doing pretty well in the all-time records game.
fact-check Come to think of it, just last week Vettel pipped Senna as the youngest 3xWDC, and became one in fewer seasons.
Though, if I am to understand you, there is only one legend? Senna is the legend?
mnmracer
Points Scorer
"It's actually a little bit of comedy to look back now and you were the driver who can't overtake," said Vettel during a media event at the Red Bull factory.
"Now after just two races people have changed their mind.
"To win from the front and to come through the field is the same. You still do your best, and people credit you have overtaken.
"You have come through the field, more than you pulling away and pulling lead of 8s or something. They don't maybe understand what it is worth to pull that gap.
"Last year we always started from a great position and, yeah, we didn't have to overtake, and then you get criticised for not overtaking." -link
mnmracer
Points Scorer
A column from the guy who earlier said that Alonso most deserves it, titled: Sebastian Vettel deserved title.
"A lot of people are asking whether the right driver won the world championship and that annoys me.
When Michael Schumacher won seven titles, or Alonso won his two with Renault, or Jenson Button his with Brawn, no-one asked whether they were the right champions.
Your biggest friend in F1 is technology, and technology nowadays is air - aerodynamics. If you do not have this as your friend, you are never going to be a three-time champion.
It's true that Alonso did an amazing job, but don't forget Ferrari did, too."
"A lot of people are asking whether the right driver won the world championship and that annoys me.
When Michael Schumacher won seven titles, or Alonso won his two with Renault, or Jenson Button his with Brawn, no-one asked whether they were the right champions.
Your biggest friend in F1 is technology, and technology nowadays is air - aerodynamics. If you do not have this as your friend, you are never going to be a three-time champion.
It's true that Alonso did an amazing job, but don't forget Ferrari did, too."
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