How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[mnmracer]

Everyone chooses to go for the quickest overall lap time. There have been a couple races when the McLarens were also further down the speed trap because it was faster.

With Red Bull it's just a fundamental design element that quickest lap time means immensely low top speed. That has nothing to do with the driver.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

But they do fly through the corners like no other car on the grid and most tracks have quite a few corners. Their traction on corner exit also means that whatever gap the following driver reels in from the Red Bulls on the straight is much greater due to the Red Bull essentially getting a head start up the straight and better initial acceleration. Whilst the Red Bull does not match up on top speed, this traction on corner exit gets them to their top speed a lot quicker. I would imagine that average speeds over the length of the straight at most circuits is a much closer call between Red Bull and their rivals.

 

[Viscount]

mnmracer Gear selection is partly down to the driver, but when those 2 drivers are driving the same car they'll likely have the same gear selection as well if it's the optimum. At pretty much all the races this season through the speed traps the Red Bull drivers were within 1kph of each other but in Hungary Webber was 2.5kph slower than Vettel and last year at Monza when Vettel went with an extremely low 7th gear (4.1kph slower than the nearest car which was a Caterham) he was 8.4kph slower than Webber through the speed trap.

 

[mnmracer]

Again, be that as it may, we're judging drivers on their performance with their car. You only have to look at races like China and Austin to see how little the Red Bull as a car can do on a straight. When it's in clean air and needs to defend, it has a bit of a chance, close as it always gets, but as soon as it is in the wake of another car and can't get a good cornerspeed onto the straight, it's absolutely nowhere.

You can not put down a driver for 'not overtaking' if his car's core design does not let him. And that's the whole discussion here: is it justified for people to diminish Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber for seemingly (I mean, the stats are on the other page) not overtaking if their car is not made for it?

If you do not feel it is fair to diminish Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber for that, this is not your discussion. You can join, but then we're just argueing the same point while those who do have ill intentions, feel empowered by the arguments you make and they can twist to their agenda.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Monza last year is a perfect example of my point above, as the Red Bull of Vettel was so fast around parabolica and out of it that there was no way that anyone was going to get anywhere near it on the straight. The Red Bull had that DRS open a hell of a lot earlier than was seen from any other of their competitors.

I should point out that the Red Bull is also better setup to take advantage of DRS when following a driver onto a straight, too, and for the same reasons. The Red Bull, with it's superior down-force and corner exit speed can plant itself right on the back of a car right at the beginning of the straight and get itself into overtaking position very early. Rather than use the DRS to overtake they nail the overtake anyway and then use the DRS to pull out a gap up the straight and then my previous post takes effect where the driver they have just overtaken cannot get the same exit or proximity next time round.

It all seems a little counter-intuitive, but it is finding something that works against conventional thinking that makes Newey such a professed genius.

 

[mnmracer]

It all seems a little counter-intuitive, but it is finding something that works against conventional thinking that makes Newey such a professed genius.

So the question remains, can Vettel's (and Webber's) performances be diminished for having to 'find something that works', and as a result, not overtake as often?

Also, if you say yes, I am curious to how you think a better driver would have faired, and some examples of where it was obvious the RB's drivers skills failed.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

That is a little evasive, mnmracer, as I was just making a reppost to your argument about the speed deficiency of the Red Bull on the straight. That is certainly something that was being discussed and very much so by yourself.

To give you my take on the wider argument, I would not diminish either of the drivers performances. They don't get their results by accident. What I will do, however, is laud the performance of the team's chief designer and assign some credit to him, also.

 

[mnmracer]

Like I said, we agree on that, but the topic at hand is "How good is Sebastian Vettel", and the claim was made that he has not shown overtaking skills as often. I am simply saying, stating perceptions of numbers (as I've shown, the numbers don't support the claim either) is not an argument why Sebastian Vettel is not good without considering the context of the car.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I think Vettel is good in any car. As good as any other driver and much better, in fact. This, with the exception of Alonso and Hamilton who I deem to be more "complete". Vettel shows enough potential even without a Red Bull that ,if he can polish off some of the rough edges that are still evident, he can be on a par with them at some point, in terms of out and out ability. Just having the setup and the equipment and support that he does now which allows him to fight alongside them is enough to fast track that journey. Something that we have all been witness to over the last three or four years.

 

[OnTheRaggedEdge]

He's exceptional but so's Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi and Hulkenberg and I reckon they all could have done equally as well this season in the Red Bull or maybe even better.

There's no denying he's talented but i feel the cars made him look better then he actually is.

 

[Tacitus]

The way I see it, Vettel was struggling to get into Q3 some sessions in the first half of the season, when the car was competitive but just not 'ideal', whilst Webber was parking it on pole and winning Monaco and Silverstone. If it isn't about the car then why does he only win when the car is SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the opposition? The first half of the season was a perfect way for him to show that even in a level playing field he can pull out magic wins. Last race we saw that even if the car is just slightly faster, with a pole margin of just 0.1 seconds, then even that's too difficult for him. Hamilton completely outclassed him in the slower car.

 

[Wombcat]

I don't think that in the race the McLaren was the slower car (or the faster car). I think in the race they were pretty even.
And Hamilton didn't outclass Vettel. It took him 3/4 of the race to get past. That's not outclassing.

 

[mnmracer]

Tacitus
The human is a fickle thing, so I assume you're not misrepresenting history on purpose.

First of, Vettel was not struggling to get into Q3 WHILE Webber parked it on pole.
In the first half of the season, Vettel 'parked it on pole' three times to one for Webber.
The one time Webber 'parked it on pole', Monaco, Vettel was 10th because they gambled for a rain race.

Of the 5 times Webber was faster in qualifying, he was on average 0.225s faster.
Of the 5 times Vettel (we'll leave Valencia aside) was faster in qualifying, he was on average 0.330s faster.

More importantly though, even when Webber was faster in qualifying, aside from China, Monaco and Silverstone (where Vettel finished on average just 2.8s behind), Vettel was faster than Webber in the other 8 races. The only reason Webber was ahead in the championship was because of Karthikeyan in Malaysia and the alternator in Valencia.

So consider these three facts:

• prior to 2012 (from their very first race in 2009), Vettel has beaten Webber in qualfiying 4 out of 5 times.
• in the first half of 2012, the score is suddenly only 6:5.
• however, Vettel was faster in Webber in 8 out of 11 races (4 out of 5.5).

Ask any statistician if that means 1) Webber was suddenly faster than Vettel or 2) Vettel chose qualifying set-ups that were more effective in the race, and you'll get a pretty clear answer.

So no, claiming that Webber was even beating Vettel when the car was 'not ideal' is factually unsubstantiated.

As for questioning Vettel's lack of 'magic wins', assuming you're talking about Fernando, be a sport and ask the same question the other way around. Why has Fernando not won a race since it dried up, while Felipe Massa has steadily been moving forward and was faster than him several times recently?

Alonso's 3 'magic wins' came from driving the best wet weather-car in Malaysian rain, moving up to 4th before shit happened to other drivers, and winning after training a rainy pole and having a car whose top speed was so much higher that Vettel couldn't even close in with DRS open. Does that mean Alonso has not done well? No, it doesn't; he's done extremely well, but Fernando's wins too came from having the best car in those conditions (MAL, GER) and moving yourself into position to pick up the pieces when others faulter (VAL). Not magic, just logic.

As for Austin, you make three mistakes:

1. without reason, you assume that Vettel took pole because the RB was fastest, not because he might just have driven a better qualifying lap.
2. you ignore the fact that the McLaren's qualifying pace and race pace is about the same level, while the Red Bull's race pace is generally slower than their qualifying pace (much like Mercedes).
3. building mistake two, you might be unaware of the fact, but Button on hard tires was lapping faster than Webber on softer tires. There is little to support the claim that the Red Bull had the fastest race pace; everything points to it simply being a sitting duck.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Didn't Webber have his usual lack of KERS at the USGP before retiring? Could it be that this contributed to his slower lap times than Button?

 

[Il_leone]

mnmracer

In response about Senna...he was recognised as some extraordinary talent before his Mclaren days but he cemented that status when the Mclaren was inferior to Williams and later Benetton and he still managed to beat them and win races...that is what I want Seb to prove that he can without the fastest car like Alonso's dig at him


I should no way was the Lotus Renault or Lotus Honda the fastest car .... Senna only managed 6 wins despite having an incredible 16 poles which shows his awesome 1 lap speed but also the poor race reliability of the Lotus compare his achievement at Lotus against Piquet who replaced him suddenly made everyone realise Piquet was average and Senna was better

Vettel's had to do more overtakes this year than previous but now and then he seems to have a wobbler moment where he either crashes and makes a mistake

the fact the majority of the paddock want Alonso to be champion says it all

I'll allude to the two Monza incidents when Vettel passed Alonso on the grass two wheels in 2011 and in 2012 was given a penalty for shoving Alonso off the track

Vettel seems to like to bend the rules and chance his arm like in Germany it was clear he was off the track when he passed Button
and was warned about keeping within the track

Then Monza he and other drivers were warned about gentleman conduct on the race track and really was asking for trouble at Monza for doing that to Alonso

I remember when questioned about his late chop on Button in Japan ..he decided to try and deflect attention to the Monza pass on Alonso at being forced on the grass which really is pathetic given he could have backed out and Alonso did give him space

 

[Bushi]

Vettel - Alonso 2011,Alonso- Vettel 2012, was the exact same scenario, but only one of them got a penalty.

 

[Bill Boddy]

If you are talking about Monza in 2011 Alonso left just enough space for Vettel, in 2012 Vettel did not leave enough space for Alonso.

 

[The Artist.....]

... Also, in 2011, an overtake was not prevented, but in 2012 the overtake WAS prevented...

 

[Wombcat]

If you want to revive the old discussions, it's better to wait until after the season ended. Then it will get you through the winter break

 

[Il_leone]

Difference between Alonso and Vettel

ALonso has shown he is a team leader by the sheer force of his personality he can drag the maximum when the odds are against him...as demonstrated numerous in the last 3 seasons

Vettel by definition is an employer from Red Bull's driver programme - a graduate - the most successful one thus far but if he can prove he can hold his own at Ferrari if its true in 2014 then he would have answered all the questions....

Vettel has shown he has felt uncomfortable when accused of team favouritism in the few incidents where Red Bull have poorly managed their drivers... I know Alonso does not care but makes it his own team but you get the impression the Red Bull management need Vettel to do well to justify their investment especially Helmut Marko.

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Before anyone starts comparing with Hamilton at Mclaren... 2008-2009 Hamilton did show he can lead the team although there were difficult moments but Lewis if he pulls Mercedes around would elevate his status as well

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As for Vettel always winning from pole ... a good comparison is to maybe look at Alain Prost who was accustomed to not start starting from the front row in the latter years but always seems to win even Mansell has shown he can win not starting on the first two rows