How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[Il_leone]

I keep saying if you look at Vettel's 2008 record his first 4 races in the old 2007 Red Bull chassis he had 4 crashes ! Him and Bourdais were evenly matched but when he got the new car which had 2008 Red Bull chassis designed by Newey he suddenly went a lot quicker to be regular points scorer

The car was a Red Bull with a powerful Ferrari engine

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Vettel looks good when he is out in front but when he is in the middle of the pack there are still questions about him like there was with drivers like Hill and Hakkinen who look great leading impressively from the front but not so great from the middle of the pack
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Also Vettel has gotten a bit edgy when his teammate gets the better of him so you wonder if a world class driver like ALonso was his teammate how would he cope with being constantly beat

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I thought he was immature for blaming Karthekeyan holding him up so Hamilton can pass. As race leader you have to expect coming across slower cars first and be more savvy and decisive

Great drivers win when they should and win races when they should not and should be able to win under a variety of conditions

Alonso I think apart from Button on the grid has a high ratio of winning races not starting from the front row which says a lot about his class

 

[siffert_fan]

Il_leone "Alonso I think apart from Button on the grid has a high ratio of winning races not starting from the front row which says a lot about his class"

What also says a lot about Alonso's "class" is trying to blackmail his boss when a teammate was faster, vetoing the hiring of potentially quicker drivers etc.

 

[mnmracer]

Il_leone
I'll assume you accidentally missed it, so I'll ask you again before you continue what seems like a very double standard-rant:

1) Was Vettel's Red Bull was the best car at every single race? Or, if you use the same standard as for Senna, is it perfectly possible to credit Vettel for winning in often the best car?

2) Since you know that Hamilton has won from only one place lower than Vettel, does that mean you think that winning from 4th instead of 3rd, is the difference between "only winning from the front" and "winning in all conditions"?

3) Senna had a 'one off' in not winning from the front. Why can Senna be creditted for a one off, and Vettel not?

 

[Gingy]

It is quite extraordinary how parallel Vetell and Senna's careers run and although Senna was not one of my favorites it is undeniable that he is a bit of a F1 Fable and one of if not the best driver in the history of the sport. Vettel can go on and achieve more but seems to be on the slippery slope of "is he only good in a fast car" or "can he race in a slower machine" but the real obvious truth is that to win a championship you need the fastest or up there in and around the fastest machine AND you need the driver to deliver with the package and whether I like Vettel or not it is obvious that he is very capable of that.

Asked how good he is. I will reply that he is darn well doing alright I think. (I had to swallow some pride to say that but hey each man deserves his credit where it is due).

I know its slightly off but eluded to about Alonso's veto status and blackmail of which neither is proven true and should be regarded as purely paper talk, there has been plenty fud on Alonso and never in any instance been proven yet regretably its going to be what people choose to regard him as instead of race craft.

 

[Brogan]

I know its slightly off but eluded to about Alonso's veto status and blackmail of which neither is proven true

That is entirely incorrect.
Ferrari have made it clear Alonso has a team mate veto and Alonso did attempt to blackmail McLaren.
This thread is about Vettel though so no more talk of it here.

By the way, we only ever ban members for a good reason.
Yes, we know who you are and your latest account is under evaluation and a decision will be made shortly as to whether to allow it to remain or not,

 

[Josh]

Big Bro is watching you

 

[Il_leone]

Il_leone
I'll assume you accidentally missed it, so I'll ask you again before you continue what seems like a very double standard-rant:

1) Was Vettel's Red Bull was the best car at every single race? Or, if you use the same standard as for Senna, is it perfectly possible to credit Vettel for winning in often the best car?


2) Since you know that Hamilton has won from only one place lower than Vettel, does that mean you think that winning from 4th instead of 3rd, is the difference between "only winning from the front" and "winning in all conditions"?

3) Senna had a 'one off' in not winning from the front. Why can Senna be creditted for a one off, and Vettel not?

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Every race Vettel has won it has been pretty much the fastest car out there.....if you look I already mentioned both Hill and Hakkinen were criticised the same way

Hakkinen's credibility is elevated because Schumacher rated him as his toughest opponent

Hill only shut the critics up when he left Williams and managed to make Arrows and Jordan more competitive whilst Williams went backwards

I cannot remember when you look at Vettel's victories and can't say it was not the fastest car on race day ....it is obvious from 1991-1993 Senna's car was inferior to the Williams and he made the difference between being on the podium to race winner

2) Hamilton wins because he has to pass the cars to victory whereas Vettel only tends to win leading from first corner



3) Senna's does not have one off winning from the front. Vettel needs to prove he can win without the best car as Alonso has famously digged at him last year

 

[Il_leone]

Il_leone "Alonso I think apart from Button on the grid has a high ratio of winning races not starting from the front row which says a lot about his class"

What also says a lot about Alonso's "class" is trying to blackmail his boss when a teammate was faster, vetoing the hiring of potentially quicker drivers etc.

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I don't agree with the politics stuff that Alonso, Schumacher or Senna have done but there is no denying their abilities in inferior cars

 

[no-FIAt-please]

The only races I remember Vettel having to overtake were Korea 2011 and Italy 2011. The overtake in Korea was on a very subdued Lewis Hamilton who was desperate to avoid any incident. However his overtake on Alonso was simply fantastic. However it is rather telling that in 26 victories I can only recall 2 occasions in which he had to overtake another driver...

As for his drive from 11th to 2nd in Belgium this year that didnt really happen did it. 4 cars got wiped and Maldonado got spun. I can ony remember his overtake on Webber, but thanks to the excellent database here on CTA he apparantly overtook Massa (twice), Webber, Senna, Vergne and Kovalainen. Kovalainen was done right after the safety car and can hardly count as a proper overtake, then there's Vergne who might not have fought quite as hard as a driver from another team might have.

 

[mnmracer]

Il_leone

I cannot remember when you look at Vettel's victories and can't say it was not the fastest car on race day....

That's because many people hold the incorrect view that the fastest car in qualifying, must translate to the fastest car in the race. Red Bull has now for 3 years, and Mercedes has this year, clearly shown that it's a completely incorrect assumption. Ferrari and Lotus, who are always faster on race day, proof it the other way around.

We can argue all day long, but if you fail to grasp such a basic understanding of Formula One, we're not going to get very far.

I cannot remember when you look at Vettel's victories and can't say it was not the fastest car on race day ....it is obvious from 1991-1993 Senna's car was inferior to the Williams and he made the difference between being on the podium to race winner

You are moving from the question, which was, was Ayrton Senna not acknowledged BEFORE 1991, when he had some of the fastest cars in history?

2) Hamilton wins because he has to pass the cars to victory whereas Vettel only tends to win leading from first corner

Kuddo's for yet again dodging the actual question.
And is that because Vettel is the amateur you make him out to be, or because the Red Bull is designed to only be competitive in that setting?
11 wins from Hamilton were from pole position.
The remaining 10:
2008 monaco no overtakes
2008 british 2nd by lap 1 behind his team mate
2009 hungarian one overtake on Mark Webber
2010 turkish one overtake on Jenson Button
2010 belgian no overtakes
2011 chinese one overtake on Sebastian Vettel
2011 german brilliant win
2011 abu dhabi in the lead after the 2nd corner
2012 canada one overtake on Fernando Alonso, two more overtakes on cars on 'sitting ducks'
2012 american one overtake on Sebastian Vettel

It seems like a pretty normal list, doesn't it?

3) Senna's does not have one off winning from the front. Vettel needs to prove he can win without the best car as Alonso has famously digged at him last year

You do know you're contradicting yourself now, right?
You had already acknowledged that Senna only won once from further down the grid (though even that was only 6th).

It would be nice if we could have this discussion based on actua facts, not on skewed perceptions contradicting what actually happened.

 

[RasputinLives]

Thing is. If you stick it on pole you don't need to overtake. Maybe his victories look so easy to everyone because he always gets the job done on the Saturday.

I mean if your winning the race from 12th or something what the bloomin hell were you playing at in quali? And as the few times he's been dropped to the back of the field he's come back through this whole he only wins races at the front thing is a load of rubbish. He only wins by doing everything right and being head of the field rather than cocking up and having to fight back isn't really a basis for doubting someones ability.

Did you know Schumacher won a title one year without pulling off one single overtake?

Look the fact of the matter is that Vettel has only driven Adrian Newy cars so you have nothing to judge it against. We can debate it until the cows come home with all sorts of theories about how he's not as good as your favourite driver but the fact is I've seen a lot of drivers in far superior cars to Vettel get nowhere near the results he has. The boy takes his chances when he gets them and thats what F1 is all about and thats what the history books are about.

So compare him to Damon Hill all you like but Seb will just smile, keep on getting results and flip you the win finger.

 

[mnmracer]

Like I said before, much of this idea that Vettel can't overtake, or can't race for positions, stems not from facts, but from perception. Some interesting statistics as to the perceived idea of Vettel's lack of overtaking:

In the 2012, the total number of overtakes:
Lewis Hamilton: 48
Fernando Alonso: 36
Sebastian Vettel: 45

In the 2012, the total number of 'equal' overtakes (tires no more than 5 laps fresher):
Lewis Hamilton: 21
Fernando Alonso: 17
Sebastian Vettel: 23

In the 2012, the total number of 'equal' overtakes excluding Caterham, Marussia and HRT:
Lewis Hamilton: 15
Fernando Alonso: 17
Sebastian Vettel: 17

 

[TN23]

Vettel can overtake- but there are a number of reasons why the perception is that he can't.

• Previous crashes, particularly in 2010 (Webber at Istanbul, Button and Liuzzi at Spa) that were not just little mistakes, they were whoppers all stemming from a simmering impetuosity at the time.
• His race combat leaves a lot to be desired- even last weekend his defence of his position from Hamilton almost caused a collision, and his attitude towards other drivers (as heard on team radio) around him is rather like a spoilt child (although he's not alone on that one)
• He isn't always decisive around backmarkers. Lapped cars maybe slower, but they still have to be passed and Vettel never exudes confidence when confronted with them.
• Because he's so good at qualifying, his overtaking comes across badly in comparison.

The perception is skewed, but I don't think that Vettel is a great overtaker, even though he can. The figures are surprising though, although each overtake always seems to be in its own microcosm.

 

[mnmracer]

• Be that as it may, it's not like he's the only one making 'stupid' crashes. Hamilton is hailed as the best overtaker (rightfuly so), but no one puts him down for his antics in 2011.
• Again, double standard here. No one says Alonso can't overtake because of his attitude towards any driver coming within 600 feet of him.
• I'm not sure what you mean by 'not always' as it's not like we see many of them, but when your car has a lower top speed than even the HRTs, no overtake is easy, even on backmarkers. Surely that should be self-explanatory?
• Again, Hamilton is a great qualifier too, yet people forgive his mistakes without even blinking an eye.

But should we not be better than a combination of skewed perception and double standards?

 

[Slyboogy]

• Again, double standard here. No one says Alonso can't overtake because of his attitude towards any driver coming within 600 feet of him.

• 
  
  
  
  A good use of hyperbole! Made me chuckle

 

[no-FIAt-please]

mnmracer Didn't Hamilton overtake Massa, Button and Rosberg during his 2011 China win? Also didn't he overtake Raikkonen last race? Also he might have overtaken drivers when he has pole position, such as Hockenheim 2008 or Canada 2010. You say that's a normal list, in which in just 10 races he had at least one overtake, while I recall Vettel making 2 in 26 wins. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Vettel can't overtake, simply that he hasn't done much of it because he hasn't had to.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

Again, Hamilton is a great qualifier too, yet people forgive his mistakes without even blinking an eye.

You've not been on here long, have you

 

[Quintessentially]

Like I said before, much of this idea that Vettel can't overtake, or can't race for positions, stems not from facts, but from perception. Some interesting statistics as to the perceived idea of Vettel's lack of overtaking:

In the 2012, the total number of 'equal' overtakes excluding Caterham, Marussia and HRT:
Lewis Hamilton: 15
Fernando Alonso: 17
Sebastian Vettel: 17

Where did you get those figures from? Andy's crib sheets?

You need to add Toro Rosso to that list. They tend to go wide when followed a Redbull.

TN23 - You forgot overtaking Jenson with al, four wheels off the track and earning himself a penalty for his troubles.

 

[mnmracer]

no-FIAt-please
You're correct on China. I was wrong there.
Räikkönen in Austin was while Kimi left the pits; more a drive-by. Probably why he wasn't listed.

The point was that according to Il_leone, winning from 3rd on the grid is "not winning in all conditions", yet winning from 4th on the grid is, and then continued that Lewis has had to do all this overtaking for his wins.

As for overtaking on pole wins, not only does it go both ways (Spain 2011 comes to mind for Vettel), but you could also argue that Vettel has had to work much harder defending for his wins, (again, look at Spain/Bahrain) because he has a massive speed-deficiency, while Hamilton doesn't.

I don't make that argument though, because it's nit-picking with the only purpose finding ways to diminish drivers who don't deserve their performances discreditted like that.

• Even if less-frequent, Vettel has shown he can fight with other cars like a champion.
• Vettel has most certainly shown he can defend against other cars like the best.
• Hamilton has most certainly shown he can fight with other cars like the best.
• Even if less-frequent, Hamilton has shown he can defend against other cars like a champion.

Nit-picking how often it has been done, and whether at times it's gone wrong (again, happens on both ends), is disrespectful to two great champions.

You need to add Toro Rosso to that list. They tend to go wide when followed a Redbull.

In your perception. Quoting one example in Abu Dhabi doesn't make your case; I could raise you Perez in Malaysia or Massa, who actually abids to team orders.
But again, it's a mood point that is only brought up clutching for straws to discredit someone.

TN23 - You forgot overtaking Jenson with al, four wheels off the track and earning himself a penalty for his troubles.

Again, there's examples for all top drivers.

Trends can be interesting to discuss. Taking incidents and acting like it happens to only one driver and that's why he doesn't measure, is just poor form in which I want to take no part.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

I wasn't attempting to nit-pick, I simply couldn't recall Vettel's overtakes during the 2011 Spanish GP but you are right about them. Either way pole position wins should be included in any analysis too.

As for car set-up it's irrelevant because I'm sure Vettel could choose to use greater straight-line speed if he wanted to, instead he chooses to go for a quicker overall lap time.