How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[mnmracer]

Il_leone
Be fair now, if you think context is necessary for Vettel's race, surely you should mention that it was an era in which the difference between cars meant that every other race was won by more than half a minute, an era in which you didn't have to compromise qualifying set-up for race set-up or vice versa, that even Raul Boesel (who? exactly) made up 19 places in that race, in which only 11 out of 28 cars ended the race while moving.

But I'm sure you're fair like that

 

[Il_leone]

Il_leone
You may have missed my questions, so I'll repeat them for you

• Was Ayrton Senna not acknowleged for his skills before he impressed in 1991 on?
• Do you know how often Lewis Hamilton won from lower than the front 2 rows?
• Do you know how often Ayrton Senna won from lower than the front 2 rows?

1) YES but even at Mclaren he did not always have the best car and won races he should not have
2) NONE - he has won from 4th place start twice and 3rd place start twice
3) 1 - Phoenix 1990 springs to mind

 

[mnmracer]

Il_leone

1) Was Vettel's Red Bull was the best car at every single race? Or, if you use the same standard as for Senna, is it perfectly possible to credit Vettel for winning in often the best car?

2) Since you know, does that mean you think that winning from 4th instead of 3rd, is the difference between "only winning from the front" and "winning in all conditions"?

3) So a 'one off' in not winning from the front. Why can Senna be creditted for a one off, and Vettel not?

 

[Wombcat]

Il_leone Monza '08?

Not really, it was the best car that weekend.

 

[RasputinLives]

Wombcat No. It wasn't the best car that weekend. Vettel managed to set it up right at the right time for the right conditions and get the best out of it which is a massive difference.

I'm not sure how you can argue that for one weekend the Torro Rosso became a super car especially with how quick the Mclaren was on race day!

 

[The Pits]

If Sebastian wins the wdc on Sunday, he will have as many wdc as the other two of the top three drivers on the grid combined. And he has plenty of years left.

 

[The Artist.....]

what, 9?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

RasputinLives. Very much the same as when Force India went and got themselves on the front row at spa and Monza consecutively due to suiting the conditions. Was that back in 2009? I can't remember. If not for the KERS in Kimi's Ferrari, they too would have won a race in a "midfield car" which happened to be the class of the field on a particular day.

 

[The Artist.....]

ExtremeNinja - it should be added that Sebastian Bourdais qualified fourth in the Toro Rosso at Monza as well (And went on to set the second fastest lap as well) - he could have won the race had his car not refused to select first gear at the start (Or even if the safety car hadn't led off the field).....

However, as the flip side, I have always thought Bourdais to be unfortunate. I don't think he's a slouch by any means, and had he had any other team-mate than Vettel, might have still been in F1 now! However, the fact that he was so soundly blown away by Vettel in 2008, and then didn't blow away Buemi meant that he was sacked midway through 2009....

(So, in summary, Vettel is good; the Toro Rosso was good at Monza - but Vettel outclassed his able but not spectacular team-mate)....

 

[teabagyokel]

He can't win with some of you, can he? He wins in a Toro Rosso, and it was the car. He wins from the pole, and that proves he's not good enough to come from the back. Then, in Belgium, he overtakes his way from 11th to 2nd and that is ignored. He gets criticised for edging out Webber in 2010, but no-one seems to have thought Webber was crap until Vettel started beating him.

He can't win. Except on the track where he can and does.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

He can win and he does win because he is one of the best drivers in Formula 1. Just trying to keep things in a proper perspective, though.

 

[The Artist.....]

teabagyokel ... Whilst I often disagree with ExtremeNinja , for once, I seem to be in complete agreement:
Sebastian Vettel is a VERY good driver. Is he head and shoulders above the rest of the field? It's difficult to say; his win in Monza is often held up as winning in an inferior car, but as is often needed for balance, it was probably the best car on that particular day... How many drivers can honestly say that they have won with what is inferior machinery? Of the last 20 years, I can only think of 2 that immediately jump to mind: Ayrton Senna (especially in 1993), and Michael Schumacher (in 1996)

Does that mean that Vettel is not as good as Senna or Schumacher? No. All it means is that Vettel has grasped his opportunities - but hasn't necessarily had other opportunities at which to grasp!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Whilst I often disagree with ExtremeNinja , for once, I seem to be in complete agreement:

Welcome to the light.

 

[RickD]

teabagyokel - I disagree, I have always thought Webber was crap..

 

[teabagyokel]

The Artist..... - The McLaren was the best car on that day; Hamilton made a complete horlicks of qualifying, Kovalainen was... Kovalainen.

 

[Brogan]

Hamilton glazed his brake discs if I remember correctly.

However, the Toro Rosso was definitely one of the best cars that day, due to the combination of conditions and set up.

The fact that Bourdais was in with a chance speaks volumes.

 

[mnmracer]

I think what many people often forget about Monza was that Vettel was actually on a dry set-up. Bourdais qualified 4th, on a wet set-up. Vettel's car was definitely not the best on those rainy satiurday and sunday-afternoons.

Unless a dry set-up is better in the rain in Monza, but that seems unlikely, doesn't it?

 

[The Artist.....]

mnmracer - are you sure you have that the right way round? (It would make more sense for Bourdais to be on the dry setup, especially as he set the 2nd fastest race lap on the penultimate lap of the race when it was dry - over a second faster than Vettel's fastest race lap....

(I honestly don't know either way - I don't remember that ever being said)

 

[mnmracer]

"We didn't go for a more downforce configuration, thinking it might be dry today, so we stuck to the dry level and didn't touch it," yay for Google

 

[The Artist.....]

So, the best set-up for a wet Monza is a dry set-up and the best set-up for a dry Monza is a wet set-up.... Go figure!