Has overtaking in Formula One become devalued?

Has overtaking in Formula One become devalued?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 30.0%
  • No

    Votes: 11 27.5%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 5 12.5%
  • A little

    Votes: 12 30.0%

  • Total voters
    40

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
We've already discussed this on various threads but I thought it worth creating a new thread and poll where everyone can post their thoughts.

We all know that overtaking in F1 has been the hottest topic for some years, mainly due to the problems related to turbulent air and a lack of mechanical grip once the following car closed to within 1 second.

However, when an overtake happened in the past, it was usually something to be savoured.
Watching the chasing driver close over the course of several laps, sometimes many, and then finally making the pass by being later on the brakes, getting a better drive out of a corner, or causing the driver in front to make a mistake.
The truly memorable passes stuck in the memory for some time, being relished and discussed for some time afterwards.

Now though, it's just a case of flicking a switch and breezing past the car in front, which is usually on older rubber.
It's not a case of will there be an overtake, but when. There's no sense of anticipation or excitement any longer.
To use an analogy, it has turned from a football match into a basketball game.

There were 126 overtakes at the 2011 Turkish Grand Prix and I can barely remember any of them.

So, has overtaking in Formula One become devalued?
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
YES. Bro' has created a thread just for me! No, but seriously ... as I'm old and should remember the year but can't although it was definately [not, apparently - thanks Galahad] mid '80's with Mansell in the Williams and Senna in the McLaren ... lap after lap around Monaco with Nige trying to push Ayrton in to a mistake ... and in the end NO overtake! That's just one example of many seminal battles I can think of. How many races have we seen where the overtake was just the climax to many laps of struggle, bluff and double bluff, half chances and finally that one small error that creates the opening. Forgive me but last weekend was just a Turkey shoot.
 

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
The fact that a lot of people nearly dropped dead of excitement after 60 overtakes in Canada last year and nowhere near that level of excitement in Turkey with double the overtakes speaks volumes
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
Well, first of all I think its a bit premature to answer the question yet. Let's see what happens in Monaco - perhaps Fenderman will see something like 1992 all over again?

As far as the DRS is concerned, it seems to me the FIA are like a child with a new toy radio - turning the volume up as high as it will go to see what happens. So the zones are getting bigger and the passes are getting easier, I wouldn't dispute that. But I think that there is a lot more happening outside the DRS zone too, and those passes are very impressive, very dramatic in many cases, and fair - albeit in large part a function of the tyres.

Was it right that in the past, we cherished each successful pass like a Faberge egg? Was that healthy? Such seemed like miracles sent from above. Perhaps the value of an individual overtaking move has been reduced back to a 'normal' level, having been over-inflated for 25+ years? It's a question of perspective...

Do I think that great, gutsy passes will still be savoured as much as in the past? Yes, I really do. I don't think we'll become immune to them. The two McLarens duelling through four or five turns? Button going around the outside of the final corner? These things still stir my soul.

They won't be shown on highlights packages for ten years (I hope) like poor Ricardo Zonta has been, and that's how it should be, IMO. Perspective, as I said.
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
1992? As recent as that? Bugger. Anyhow, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying great stuff isn't happening and didn't happen last weekend. Problem is the great stuff can get lost in the fog. Consider this ... the other great love of my life, the guitar. By the end of the eighties the lead guitar solo became so commonly do-able with every young shaver pulling off the fastest riff on the planet it got so dull! No matter how impressive we've heard 'em all before. For the next decade you were lucky to hear a band with a lead guitar in it! As I think I posted elsewhere, I think it's about balance. We wanted more and got more ... good. But please not too much!:dunno:

That's my final word on the subject as I too am becoming a bore. Nevertheless, thank you for presenting another opportunity, Bro'.
 

KekeTheKing

Banned
Supporter
Perhaps the value of an individual overtaking move has been reduced back to a 'normal' level, having been over-inflated for 25+ years?

I think you're on to something here.

And I also agree that it's too soon to make any firm declarations one way or the other.
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
Don't make me moderate you Brogan ;) as this is a loaded question that could well lead on to a debate about which era had the best overtaking (and if it does woe betide you! j/k)

If there were an option for "a little" I'd tend to agree and as per usual Galahad has hit the nail on the head far more succinctly that I ever could.

There were some great moves in Turkey but with so many maybe we couldn't see the woods for the trees, so in that case the overall spectacle may have been devalued in terms of some of the passes made.

But then I'd say no it hasn't, because banging wheels at 200mph still takes balls of steel to pull off regardless if it were Hamilton on Button or Villenueve on Arnoux.

There is a difference between passing a car and overtaking a car, in my mind a pass is due to pressuring the driver in front into a mistake, a faster car behind a slower car or getting close enough through your DRS or tyre degradation to be in a position to pass. An overtake is being in a similar position to a car up the road and using your skill and judgement not only to catch that car but to out drive them.

The DRS and tyres need looking at and have been discussed Here

If I may quote myself

it's always evolved and it always will - you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

It's only been 4 races Bro, they'll get the regs more or less right soon.
 
J

johnnoble1990

Guest
I think it is inevitable that if something becomes more common it will be devalued, but 100 £1 coins is worth more than 10 £5 notes.
 

sportsman

Sidecar racers have the biggest cojones
Contributor
Far to early to to make firm decision.
There was a lot nonsense written about Pirelli tyres which proved to be untrue.
Wait for a few more races, then maybe another poll.
As for the DRS being artificial.Isn't an F1 car artificial anyway.They are bear no resemblance to cars in the normal sense.
They are more akin to low flying planes due to their dependence on aerodynamics for their performance.
 

snowy

Champion Elect
My position fluctuates. But overwhelmingly I am of the opinion that overtaking is not what makes motor racing interesting.

Having witnessed great duels and triumphant overtakes I think I know the value of an overtake. Having witnessed unrelenting processions and fruitless pursuits aplenty, I can see the attraction of a formula that allows one car to gain track position over another.

Being mediocre myself I tend to lean towards rewarding mediocrity as much as excellence, though in reality I tend to appreciate excellence more. I think I believe that overtaking belongs in a particular domain... it is an expression excellence. If everybody is excellent then that surely is a good thing... and if there were 100+ excellent overtakes that too is very, very good. But I

But if everybody is excellent who is going to do the washing up?
 

snowy

Champion Elect
...Not a lot of people are aware, appreciate, know or have taken time to comment on Jenson Button's skill as an overtaker. Throughout his career he has been very adept at overtaking and racing wheel to wheel. I have no idea why little attention or credit has been paid to this area of his driving!

If the current formula for F1 affords Jenson more opportunities and accolades for his ability to overtake then perhaps I will relinquish my grip on dogma and allow myself to embrace the new rules. If his abilities become even more obscured by the mediocre endeavours of others then I shall continue to object most strongly to artificiality and contrivance.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
...Not a lot of people are aware, appreciate, know or have taken time to comment on Jenson Button's skill as an overtaker. Throughout his career he has been very adept at overtaking and racing wheel to wheel. I have no idea why little attention or credit has been paid to this area of his driving!

If the current formula for F1 affords Jenson more opportunities and accolades for his ability to overtake then perhaps I will relinquish my grip on dogma and allow myself to embrace the new rules. If his abilities become even more obscured by the mediocre endeavours of others then I shall continue to object most strongly to artificiality and contrivance.

People mention Lewis overtaking Jenson at Turkey, but all fail to mention that Jenson got him back on the very next lap.
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
There's no sense of anticipation or excitement any longer.

Nor any utter frustration watching a faster car being held up because it is physically (and mechanically) impossible to pass.

I have voted " a liitle" - although I am enjoying this season immensely, DRS has become too important and should be employed/regulated with a tad more prudence. Having said that though, I would still prefer to see drivers overtaking on track than being shunted up the field by clever pit stops - it's the racing that I'm watching and once that has started, the single most important thing is the man in the machine.
 

F1Yorkshire

Avatar for sale to the highest bidder
Contributor
The way I see it is that F1 before this year could be compared to a football match. There may be only 1 or 2 game changing moments such as a goal or red card but we would sit through with nervous excitement till the end.

Now F1 is more like a basketball game, the game is as still as exciting to watch but the frequency of the scoring has gone up dramatically. The end result hasn't changed just the method employed has.
 

RevMaxPower

Banned
Disneyland comes to mind. X-Factor comes to mind. M6/M25 in the rush hour comes to mind. Top Gear/5th Gear come to mind. Kiddies Go Karts on the pier come to mind.
Out and out head to head pinnacle of the sport professional motor race where it's down to the DRIVERS does NOT come to mind...

Please stop messing about with Mickey Mouse ideas and get back to basics. F1 is fast becoming a shadow of it's former self. What is happening to our Sport?
 

Road of Bones

MTC Mole
Contributor
A thorny issue, the assignation of "value". The fact that overtaking has suddenly become available at every stage of a Grand Prix, and is as much on-track as it is through pit-stop strategy, means that the new rules have certainly changed the value of overtaking. It is as much to do with the perception of the spectacle in the eyes of the viewer as anything else, I think.

It would seem that we all have to wrap our heads around the idea that an on-track overtake does not mean that the position is secured, as it used to do in previous seasons. Once the teams get the measure of the new rubber, I'm expecting that the strategies will gradually level out between them, and then DRS & KERS will become the main overtaking facilitators.
 
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