Irishgreen
Banned
Like myself,DRS needs tweaked here and there
Has overtaking in Formula One become devalued?
- Thread starter Brogan
- Start date
I've gone for a little, because rarity pushes up the value.
Think back 3-and-a-bit weeks, to the Chinese Grand Prix. Lewis Hamilton passed Jenson Button down into Turn 1, outside the DRS zone and on the same tyres. That brought him to the head of the three stopper queue and he went on to win the Grand Prix by passing the two guys in front. I presume few here were disappointed.
Now Turkey had a less satisfactory conclusion. The three podium finishers were a long way clear of the action, and there was not a real Grand Prix deciding moment. There were 126 overtakes, but many were not seen and those that were generally saw Nico Rosberg falling down the order or something that was overturned by a pit stop.
No set of rules will create a Grand Prix like China every week. They can't create a situation where the leader may always be under threat, especially if he's a half second clear in qualifying. But the reason the Turkish GP did not satisfy as the Chinese GP did was not DRS, nor Pirelli, nor KERS. Simply, the overtakes seemed irrelevant; they seemed not to affect the result, and that led to the empty feeling that accompanied the end of the race.
Think back 3-and-a-bit weeks, to the Chinese Grand Prix. Lewis Hamilton passed Jenson Button down into Turn 1, outside the DRS zone and on the same tyres. That brought him to the head of the three stopper queue and he went on to win the Grand Prix by passing the two guys in front. I presume few here were disappointed.
Now Turkey had a less satisfactory conclusion. The three podium finishers were a long way clear of the action, and there was not a real Grand Prix deciding moment. There were 126 overtakes, but many were not seen and those that were generally saw Nico Rosberg falling down the order or something that was overturned by a pit stop.
No set of rules will create a Grand Prix like China every week. They can't create a situation where the leader may always be under threat, especially if he's a half second clear in qualifying. But the reason the Turkish GP did not satisfy as the Chinese GP did was not DRS, nor Pirelli, nor KERS. Simply, the overtakes seemed irrelevant; they seemed not to affect the result, and that led to the empty feeling that accompanied the end of the race.
Yes.
There can't be another answer IMO because the huge ratios would dictate so. Thats not necessarily a bad thing though. Im very wary of dismissal because the overtaking we see is something we have yearned for for 10 or more years. Then we get it and could easily begin to dismiss it.
I think that the tyres are quite possibly a much bigger contributor to overtaking this year than the DRS, and Pirelli should be congratulated for that. No one could have foreseen that, but it does perhaps lessen the need for DRS. DRS went too far in Turkey, i hope they knock it back to the level/gain we saw in Australia. I would like to see it allow the car to get right up the chuff of another, but, of course, not just drive past like we saw in several cases in Turkey.
So yes, devalued, but, were they hugely overvalued and inflated previously because of how close to impossible it was to achieve.
There can't be another answer IMO because the huge ratios would dictate so. Thats not necessarily a bad thing though. Im very wary of dismissal because the overtaking we see is something we have yearned for for 10 or more years. Then we get it and could easily begin to dismiss it.
I think that the tyres are quite possibly a much bigger contributor to overtaking this year than the DRS, and Pirelli should be congratulated for that. No one could have foreseen that, but it does perhaps lessen the need for DRS. DRS went too far in Turkey, i hope they knock it back to the level/gain we saw in Australia. I would like to see it allow the car to get right up the chuff of another, but, of course, not just drive past like we saw in several cases in Turkey.
So yes, devalued, but, were they hugely overvalued and inflated previously because of how close to impossible it was to achieve.
I've knocked up a quick chart based on the Turkey overtaking figures comparing starting and finishing positions and then number of overtakes.
It is showing how most of overtaking didn't really change anything, the only exceptions being Kobayashi and Buemi. The two drivers who did the most overtaking actually went backwards during the race.
This analysis has pretty much made my mind up, the improved overtaking has no relevance on the race result but makes the race more interesting to watch.
It is showing how most of overtaking didn't really change anything, the only exceptions being Kobayashi and Buemi. The two drivers who did the most overtaking actually went backwards during the race.
This analysis has pretty much made my mind up, the improved overtaking has no relevance on the race result but makes the race more interesting to watch.
J
johnnoble1990
Guest
Great analogy. I've always thought us over in Europe have always liked that about our sports. Only 1 or 2 major changes, but those changes are so important they regularly have us running round the room like loonatics. You will never see basketball fans celebrating a basket the way we celebrate a goal, and you'd never see a Nascar fan get excited over an overtake, the way we would've the last few years.
O/T
Listen out for it in practice for the Spanish GP - I mentioned it to Crofty a few days ago
http://twitter.com/#!/CroftyF1/status/67872846122188800
Interesting points made on this and I went for 'a little', pretty much for the same reasons as everyone else. It's not if an overtake is made, it is the anticipation and excitement of a battle.
With the DRS zone being so large in Turkey it made overtaking seem to easy and drivers just breezed past one another. It should be kept shorter so as to give the driver behind the chance of overtaking but also not render the defending driver completely helpless
I starting to come round to the DRS (so long as the zone isn't too big) and I don't think we should worry too much about overtaking becoming undervalued - I'm sure the FIA will get it right once the teething problems are sorted out.
With the DRS zone being so large in Turkey it made overtaking seem to easy and drivers just breezed past one another. It should be kept shorter so as to give the driver behind the chance of overtaking but also not render the defending driver completely helpless
I starting to come round to the DRS (so long as the zone isn't too big) and I don't think we should worry too much about overtaking becoming undervalued - I'm sure the FIA will get it right once the teething problems are sorted out.
Wish I hadn't chosen Vettel, should have chosen Alonso or Kobayashi, probably the latter as he was also hindered by that puncture.
My decision was always going to be between Buemi and Kobayashi, If not for the puncture Koby would have got my vote for DotW.
I do have a question for the stat masters of this forum and this is directed at Galahad and Keke if they are reading.
How easy would it be to add a similar table to the one I created at the bottom of each races overtaking analysis? I'm sure it could be a very useful tool for working out which overtakes if any actually made a difference in a race.
I do have a question for the stat masters of this forum and this is directed at Galahad and Keke if they are reading.
How easy would it be to add a similar table to the one I created at the bottom of each races overtaking analysis? I'm sure it could be a very useful tool for working out which overtakes if any actually made a difference in a race.
F1Y, the codes for anything you'd be able to post are here:
http://cliptheapex.com/help/bb-codes
I think it would be great - position changes vs overtakes is quite an interesting area w.r.t. the data, and it can be extrapolated back to 1982 if necessary!
http://cliptheapex.com/help/bb-codes
I think it would be great - position changes vs overtakes is quite an interesting area w.r.t. the data, and it can be extrapolated back to 1982 if necessary!
If only we still had the F1 database, it could be coded in as an automatic function
I like it, and I'll definitely give it a try on the Catalunya thread.
snowy
Champion Elect
Can we make one thing absolutely clear!!!
Whilst some overtakes may appear on the surface to not appear to be critical, the vast majority of them will have been critical. Even the overtakes of drivers on the lead lap over back markers can be critical.
Track position at particular moments in the race and the ability to use the performance in the tyres to the fullest extent are even more important now than ever. With drivers using various tyre strategies and with the tyres performance varying anything between a second a lap and 6 seconds a lap. Making that pass and running in clear air for just one lap can determine the outcome of your race.
I am absolutely positive that looking at a sheet of stats will not tell any of us how important or futile any particular overtaking manoeuvre or loss of track position was.
Just one instance of a vital overtake that may or may not have had a critical effect on the race in Turkey was Felipe Massa's overtaking Lewis Hamilton. He overtook Lewis and moments later both cars were in the pits. Felipe's stop lasted fractionally longer than Lewis' and Lewis got the drop on him exiting the pit box. The events statistically were meaningless but each moment and each decision was critically important to the outcome of their respective races.
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