Hamilton v Alonso ~ Senna v Prost

J

johnnoble1990

Guest
From Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/28/lewis-hamilton-ayrton-senna-alain-prost

Lewis Hamilton sees fight with Fernando Alonso as new 'Senna v Prost'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/28/lewis-hamilton-ayrton-senna-alain-prost#history-link-box

Lewis Hamilton, the McLaren driver, believes his Formula One 'nemesis' this season will be clad in the red of Ferrari. Photograph: Clive Mason/Getty Images Sebastian Vettel may be the man most likely to thwart Lewis Hamilton's hopes of a second world championship this season, but as the McLaren driver arrived in the tropical metropolis of Kuala Lumpur it was not the German on his mind but the man he describes as his "nemesis", Fernando Alonso.

"I will always think that my nemesis and my closest rival will always be Fernando," said an unusually reflective Hamilton. "Just because of my history, when I started out. I see him as my Prost, if we were [Alain] Prost and [Aryton] Senna. If you were to say 'choose a driver' [that I would like to be] I would clearly choose Ayrton. And maybe I would put him as Prost."

The rivalry between Senna and Prost, which is brilliantly captured in the new film, Senna, was one of the most bitter in all sport. The difficult relationship between Hamilton and Alonso in 2007, when the Spaniard was unsettled and ultimately driven from McLaren by Hamilton's rookie brilliance, had its moments, too. Hamilton, probably, has never received proper credit for his performances that season, when he missed the championship by a single point.But is not Vettel his true nemesis now? "I don't think so. If he continues to have a car like he does now then, maybe, but I think when we get equal pace then we will see some serious racing. Maybe he [Vettel] is the new Mansell? Not that I would rate him like I do Mansell." Ouch.

Interesting article this. I have to agree with Lewis. As a viewer with sport you always have your protagonists and antagonist. Lewis is my protagonist and i know for him to be considered the best driver on the grid it is Alonso he has to beat, making him my ultimate antagonist, even if that battle isn't being played out at the very top of the championship right now.

The little dig at Vettel might be a little harsh, but i kind of think it is a valid one. I don't dislike Vettel much, but i resent him a little for winning last years championship, seemingly by default. He is getting all this praise at the moment, but any driver on the grid would have had a shot at the World title in that car. This said, i don't think Seb is a bad driver. Probably 3rd or 4th depending on how you rate Kubica, but i would say the gap from Alonso and Hamilton is far more vast than people like to say.

I'd also like to add that i didn't think Hamilton ever got the praise he deserved for his rookie season either. He did at the time while he looked like winning the world championship, but i would argue that it was the most impressive season i've ever seen, considering he was beating the best driver on the grid, in the same equipment, in his first season. It is typical media analysis, only looking at the result, rather than realising that it is more than individual performance that decides a World Championship.
 

snowy

Champion Elect
If the last few weeks has taught me anything it is, never underestimate anybody!

I underestimated Red Bull, Sebastian Vettel, Renault and McLaren!
But seriously if you can't rate Sebastian Vettel by his performances, albeit in the best car on the grid, then you've got to work on your system of calibration.

As for Lewis focusing his attention on a guy behind him when he has another in front with superior equipment and what can only be described as unnatural qualifying ability, is tantamount to suicide.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
The little dig at Vettel might be a little harsh, but i kind of think it is a valid one. I don't dislike Vettel much, but i resent him a little for winning last years championship, seemingly by default.He is getting all this praise at the moment, but any driver on the grid would have had a shot at the World title in that car. This said, i don't think Seb is a bad driver.

Makes him a bit of a Mansell! ;)

Probably 3rd or 4th depending on how you rate Kubica, but i would say the gap from Alonso and Hamilton is far more vast than people like to say.

I disagree, I think Vettel is close. I think his strengths lie in different places, however. It all looks so easy for him when he's on song because he is a better qualifier than the rest. (Bit of a Senna, perhaps!) I think Alonso and Hamilton have different strengths.

Put it this way, in the same situation, Seb Vettel would not have won the 2008 German Grand Prix. Having said that, the 2008 Italian Grand Prix is a fantastic example of Lewis doing everything wrong under pressure and Seb winning the race because he didn't.

I'd also like to add that i didn't think Hamilton ever got the praise he deserved for his rookie season either. He did at the time while he looked like winning the world championship, but i would argue that it was the most impressive season i've ever seen, considering he was beating the best driver on the grid, in the same equipment, in his first season. It is typical media analysis, only looking at the result, rather than realising that it is more than individual performance that decides a World Championship.

While I'm reluctant to accuse Alonso/McLaren of any skullduggery (that is not already proven and on public record...) I would agree that his season in 2007 was excellent. However, I don't think he was overcriticised.
 

snowy

Champion Elect
Some driver statistics for our four protagonists and the unrecognised rivals Vettel and Mansell.

Sebastian Vettel

Date of birth: July 3, 1987 (23 y/o)
Place of birth: Heppenheim
Races entered: 157
Wins: 40
Podiums: 74
Pole positions: 38
Fastest laps: 30
Race win percentage: 25.48%

Racing career highlights

Formula 1 world champion 2010.
Second in Formula 1 2009.
Second in Formula 3 Euro Series 2006.
Third in Formula 3 Macau GP 2005.
German Formula BMW champion 2004.
Second in Formula BMW ADAC 2003.

Karting career highlights

European champion in the ICA Junior class 2001.
German Junior Kart champion 2001.
Winner of the Monaco Kart Cup in the ICA Junior class 2001.
Winner of the NRW Cup in the Bambini A class 1998.
DMV Süd Landesmeisterschaft champion in the Bambini A class 1998.
DMV Bundesmeisterschaft champion in the Bambini B class 1997.
DMV Süd Landesmeisterschaft champion in the Bambini B class 1997.
Winner of the NRW Cup in the Bambini B class 1997.

Racing career summary

2011 1 race. 1 win. 1 podium. 1 pole position. 0 fastest race laps.
2010 19 races. 5 wins. 10 podiums. 10 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
2009 17 races. 4 wins. 8 podiums. 4 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
2008 18 races. 1 win. 1 podium. 1 pole position. 0 fastest race laps.
2007 15 races. 1 win. 4 podiums. 1 pole position. 1 fastest race lap.
2006 25 races. 5 wins. 11 podiums. 2 pole positions. 5 fastest race laps.
2005 23 races. 0 wins. 7 podiums. 0 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
2004 20 races. 18 wins. 20 podiums. 14 pole positions. 13 fastest race laps.
2003 19 races. 5 wins. 12 podiums. 5 pole positions. 4 fastest race laps.
_________________________________________________

Lewis Hamilton

Date of birth: January 7, 1985 (26 y/o)
Place of birth: Tewin, Hertfordshire
Races entered: 181
Wins: 51
Podiums: 99
Pole positions: 50
Fastest laps: 44
Race win percentage: 28.18%

Racing career highlights

Formula 1 world champion 2008.
Second in Formula 1 2007.
GP2 champion 2006.
European Formula 3 champion 2005.
Masters of Formula 3 winner 2005.
Bahrain F3 Superprix winner 2004.
British Formula Renault 2.0 champion 2003.
Third in Formula Renault 2.0 UK 2002.

Karting career highlights

European champion Formula A 2000.
World Cup Formula A champion 2000.
Second in European Championship ICA Junior 1999.
Super 1 National Formula Yamaha champion 1997.
Winner of the Kartmasters British Grand Prix in the Cadet class 1996.
Super 1 National Cadet champion 1995.

Racing career summary

2011 1 race. 0 wins. 1 podium. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2010 19 races. 3 wins. 9 podiums. 1 pole position. 5 fastest race laps.
2009 17 races. 2 wins. 5 podiums. 4 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2008 18 races. 5 wins. 10 podiums. 7 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
2007 17 races. 4 wins. 12 podiums. 6 pole positions. 2 fastest race laps.
2006 21 races. 5 wins. 14 podiums. 1 pole position. 7 fastest race laps.
2005 21 races. 16 wins. 18 podiums. 14 pole positions. 11 fastest race laps.
2004 23 races. 2 wins. 6 podiums. 1 pole position. 2 fastest race laps.
2003 23 races. 10 wins. 14 podiums. 12 pole positions. 9 fastest race laps.
2002 17 races. 4 wins. 10 podiums. 4 pole positions. 7 fastest race laps.
2001 4 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
_______________________________________________________

Fernando Alonso

Date of birth: July 29, 1981 (29 y/o)
Place of birth: Oviedo
Races entered: 184
Wins: 33
Podiums: 73
Pole positions: 30
Fastest laps: 20
Race win percentage: 17.93%

Racing career highlights

Second in Formula 1 2010.
Third in Formula 1 2007.
Formula 1 world champion 2006.
Formula 1 world champion 2005.
World Series by Nissan champion 1999.

Karting career highlights

Second in European Championship Formula A 1998.
Winner of the Five Continents Cup Junior A 1996.
Spanish champion Junior class 1995.
Third in Rainbow Trophy Cadets 1995.
Spanish champion Junior class 1994.
Spanish champion Junior class 1993.
Second in Spanish Championship - Cadet 1991.

Racing career summary

2011 1 race. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2010 19 races. 5 wins. 10 podiums. 2 pole positions. 5 fastest race laps.
2009 17 races. 0 wins. 1 podium. 1 pole position. 2 fastest race laps.
2008 18 races. 2 wins. 3 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2007 17 races. 4 wins. 12 podiums. 2 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
2006 18 races. 7 wins. 14 podiums. 6 pole positions. 5 fastest race laps.
2005 19 races. 7 wins. 15 podiums. 6 pole positions. 2 fastest race laps.
2004 18 races. 0 wins. 4 podiums. 1 pole position. 0 fastest race laps.
2003 17 races. 1 win. 4 podiums. 2 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
2002 0 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2001 16 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2000 9 races. 1 win. 2 podiums. 1 pole position. 2 fastest race laps.
1999 15 races. 6 wins. 8 podiums. 9 pole positions. ? fastest race laps.
_______________________________________________________

Ayrton Senna

Date of birth: March 21, 1960
Place of birth: São Paulo
Died: May 1, 1994
Place of death: Bologna, Italy
Races entered: 229
Wins: 90
Podiums: 139
Pole positions: 97
Fastest laps: 66
Race win percentage: 39.3%

Racing career highlights

Second in Formula 1 1993.
Formula 1 world champion 1991.
Formula 1 world champion 1990.
Second in Formula 1 1989.
Formula 1 world champion 1988.
Third in Formula 1 1987.
British Formula 3 champion 1983.
Winner of the Macau Formula 3 Grand Prix 1983.
British Formula Ford 2000 champion 1982.
European Formula Ford 2000 champion 1982.
Winner of the Celebrity Formula Ford 2000 race 1982.
British RAC Formula Ford 1600 champion 1981.
British Townsend Thorsesen Formula Ford 1600 champion 1981.

Karting career highlights

Second in World Championship 100cc 1980.
Second in World Championship 100cc 1979.

Racing career summary

1994 3 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 3 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1993 16 races. 5 wins. 7 podiums. 1 pole position. 1 fastest race lap.
1992 16 races. 3 wins. 7 podiums. 1 pole position. 1 fastest race lap.
1991 16 races. 7 wins. 12 podiums. 8 pole positions. 2 fastest race laps.
1990 16 races. 6 wins. 11 podiums. 10 pole positions. 2 fastest race laps.
1989 16 races. 6 wins. 7 podiums. 13 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1988 16 races. 8 wins. 11 podiums. 13 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1987 16 races. 2 wins. 8 podiums. 1 pole position. 3 fastest race laps.
1986 16 races. 2 wins. 8 podiums. 8 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1985 16 races. 2 wins. 6 podiums. 7 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1984 15 races. 0 wins. 3 podiums. 0 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
1983 20 races. 14 wins. 16 podiums. 15 pole positions. 12 fastest race laps.
1982 27 races. 23 wins. 25 podiums. 14 pole positions. 25 fastest race laps.
1981 20 races. 12 wins. 18 podiums. 3 pole positions. 10 fastest race laps.
_______________________________________________________

Alain Prost

Date of birth: February 24, 1955 (56 y/o)
Place of birth: St. Chamond
Races entered: 268
Wins: 78
Podiums: 144
Pole positions: 52
Fastest laps: 48
Race win percentage: 29.1%

Racing career highlights

Formula 1 world champion 1993.
Second in Formula 1 1990.
Formula 1 world champion 1989.
Second in Formula 1 1988.
Formula 1 world champion 1986.
Formula 1 world champion 1985.
Second in Formula 1 1984.
Second in Formula 1 1983.
French Formula 3 champion 1979.
European Formula 3 champion 1979.
French Formula 3 champion 1978.
European Formula Renault champion 1977.
French Formula Renault champion 1976.

Karting career highlights

French champion in Elite class 1974.
Second in French Championship Elite 1973.

Racing career summary

2005 12 races. 1 win. 4 podiums. 2 pole positions. ? fastest race laps.
1995 0 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1993 16 races. 7 wins. 12 podiums. 13 pole positions. 6 fastest race laps.
1992 0 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1991 14 races. 0 wins. 5 podiums. 0 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
1990 16 races. 5 wins. 9 podiums. 0 pole positions. 2 fastest race laps.
1989 16 races. 4 wins. 11 podiums. 2 pole positions. 5 fastest race laps.
1988 16 races. 7 wins. 14 podiums. 2 pole positions. 7 fastest race laps.
1987 16 races. 3 wins. 7 podiums. 0 pole positions. 2 fastest race laps.
1986 16 races. 4 wins. 11 podiums. 1 pole position. 2 fastest race laps.
1985 16 races. 5 wins. 11 podiums. 2 pole positions. 5 fastest race laps.
1984 16 races. 7 wins. 9 podiums. 3 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1983 15 races. 4 wins. 7 podiums. 3 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1982 17 races. 3 wins. 5 podiums. 6 pole positions. 4 fastest race laps.
1981 15 races. 3 wins. 6 podiums. 2 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
1980 13 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1979 10 races. 6 wins. 8 podiums. 4 pole positions. 6 fastest race laps.
1978 11 races. 1 win. 3 podiums. 1 pole position. 1 fastest race lap.
1977 18 races. 6 wins. 10 podiums. 4 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1976 15 races. 12 wins. 12 podiums. 7 pole positions. ? fastest race laps.

_______________________________________________________

Nigel Mansell

Date of birth: August 8, 1953 (57 y/o)
Place of birth: Upton-on-Severn
Races entered: 272
Wins: 39
Podiums: 78
Pole positions: 45
Fastest laps: 36
Race win percentage: 14.34%

Racing career highlights

Second in GP Masters 2006.
Champ Car World Series champion 1993.
Formula 1 world champion 1992.
Second in Formula 1 1991.
Second in Formula 1 1987.
Second in Formula 1 1986.
Second in Formula 3 John Player International F3 Trophy 1979.
British Formula Ford 1600 champion in the BRDC championship 1977.

Racing career summary

2010 2 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2009 1 race. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
2007 1 race. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. ? fastest race laps.
2006 2 races. 1 win. 1 podium. 1 pole position. ? fastest race laps.
2005 1 race. 1 win. 1 podium. 1 pole position. ? fastest race laps.
1998 6 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1995 2 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1994 20 races. 1 win. 4 podiums. 4 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1993 15 races. 5 wins. 10 podiums. 7 pole positions. 5 fastest race laps.
1992 16 races. 9 wins. 12 podiums. 14 pole positions. 8 fastest race laps.
1991 16 races. 5 wins. 9 podiums. 2 pole positions. 6 fastest race laps.
1990 16 races. 1 win. 5 podiums. 3 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1989 15 races. 2 wins. 5 podiums. 0 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1988 14 races. 0 wins. 2 podiums. 0 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
1987 14 races. 6 wins. 7 podiums. 8 pole positions. 3 fastest race laps.
1986 16 races. 5 wins. 9 podiums. 2 pole positions. 4 fastest race laps.
1985 15 races. 2 wins. 3 podiums. 1 pole position. 1 fastest race lap.
1984 16 races. 0 wins. 2 podiums. 1 pole position. 0 fastest race laps.
1983 16 races. 0 wins. 1 podium. 0 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
1982 13 races. 0 wins. 1 podium. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1981 14 races. 0 wins. 1 podium. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1980 14 races. 0 wins. 1 podium. 0 pole positions. 1 fastest race lap.
1979 17 races. 1 win. 3 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.
1978 5 races. 0 wins. 1 podium. 1 pole position. 0 fastest race laps.
1977 5 races. 0 wins. 0 podiums. 0 pole positions. 0 fastest race laps.

http://www.driverdb.com
 

snowy

Champion Elect
Drive with same team
Fernando Alonso Lewis Hamilton
17 Races 17
4 23% Victory 23% 4
2 11% Pole 35% 6
12 70% Podium 70% 12
3 17% FastesLaps 11% 2
16 94% FinInPoints 88% 15
109.00 64% Points 64% 109.00

Drive in same race
Fernando Alonso Lewis Hamilton
71 Races 71
31 43% Best on grid 56% 40
37 52% Best at finish 47% 34
11 15% Victory 19% 14
5 7% Pole 25% 18
26 36% Podium 50% 36
10 14% FastesLaps 11% 8
52 73% FinInPoints 73% 52
448.00 45% Points 49% 496.00

All races
Fernando Alonso Lewis Hamilton
159 Races 71
26 16% Victory 19% 14
20 12% Pole 25% 18
63 39% Podium 50% 36
18 11% FastesLaps 11% 8
107 67% FinInPoints 73% 52
829.00 44% Points 49% 496.00



Drive in same race
Sebastian Vettel Lewis Hamilton
62 Races 62
30 48% Best on grid 51% 32
28 45% Best at finish 54% 34
10 16% Victory 20% 13
15 24% Pole 25% 16
19 30% Podium 45% 28
6 9% FastesLaps 11% 7
38 61% FinInPoints 70% 44
381.00 42% Points 48% 436.00

All races
Sebastian Vettel Lewis Hamilton
62 Races 71
10 16% Victory 19% 14
15 24% Pole 25% 18
19 30% Podium 50% 36
6 9% FastesLaps 11% 8
38 61% FinInPoints 73% 52
381.00 42% Points 49% 496.00
 
J

johnnoble1990

Guest
I disagree, I think Vettel is close. I think his strengths lie in different places, however. It all looks so easy for him when he's on song because he is a better qualifier than the rest. (Bit of a Senna, perhaps!) I think Alonso and Hamilton have different strengths.

Put it this way, in the same situation, Seb Vettel would not have won the 2008 German Grand Prix. Having said that, the 2008 Italian Grand Prix is a fantastic example of Lewis doing everything wrong under pressure and Seb winning the race because he didn't.

I think this is one of the cool things about having different drivers in different cars, it becomes very difficult to judge drivers who are not team mates and becomes somewhat subjective. If you asked who was the worlds best football team 90% would probably answer Barcelona and the other 10% would be wrong. If you asked who was the best F1 driver, the votes would probably be all over the place. Schumi (if he returns to form), Kubica, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso could all have a case. Kimi as well if he ever decided to return (unlikely).

You are right about Vettel in quali. I think this is one of the reasons he is looking so dominant for Red Bull. As long as he can stay in clean air he is dominant, but when he slips down the field we start to see some inconsistencies. It will be interesting to see what happens if Mclaren and Ferrari catch Seb, if he will still have such high praise.

Hamilton hasn't handled pressure too well in the past. I still have flashbacks of China 2007 in my sleep. One thing with Lewis though, is when he does finish, he is easily the most consistently high finisher. I still maintain though that his DNF against Webber was 100% Mark's fault. Lewis had the corner and Webber shouldn't have tried to dive back down the inside.

Some driver statistics for our four protagonists and the unrecognised rivals Vettel and Mansell.

Wow thank you for posting all this. I'm going to take a minute to dissect some of the information. This website really is full of us stats geeks. ROFL
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
Too many stats for me to handle there!

I've always thought Hamilton vs Alonso was more of a Hamilton vs Alonso to be honest.

I can't see the reasons behind Lewis' statement, other than maybe to piss Vettel off. I would hazard a guess that most F1 fans tend to think Hamilton vs Alonso probably is the best rivalry right now (cough barring the awesome Saubers cough), if they are on some level objective/respectful. It's certainly one I pay attention to, I think I would if I wasn't even a fan of Hamilton, they are two intense characters when they get in the car. It's always nice to see them going wheel to wheel. Indy 2007, Silverstone 2009 and Canada 2010 all spring to mind.
 
J

johnnoble1990

Guest
It is difficult to know what we can take from these stats. As i said above, comparing F1 drivers is an extremely subjective task. I think Alonso's lower win % over his career is mainly due to the fact that the majority of his races were done in F1, while both Vettel and Hamilton were part of the rise in Junior formulas.

Lewis has the best record overall, but this was obviously one of the reasons he was so highly regarded before he even step foot in an F1 car. The thing that has surprised me after looking at racing stats of Lewis is how much better in Quali he is than i ever have given him credit for. It is usually his performance in races that grabs my eye but it seems some costly mistakes may be distorting these stats.

There was absolutely nothing between Lewis and Fernando the season they competed in the same team. Lewis should've finished the season off with the title. It still breaks my heart that he didn't. It would've been such an achievement in his rookie.

As said before, most of the stats are messed up by the fact that the drivers have driven different cars at different speeds. But, and i'm hoping my bias isn't distort my view of this, part it does seem Lewis has been more "succesful" in terms of race wins and poles, as a percentage of time spent in F1. His consistency in getting podiums is ridiculous as well. 50%? Crazy.

Too many stats for me to handle there!

I've always thought Hamilton vs Alonso was more of a Hamilton vs Alonso to be honest.

I can't see the reasons behind Lewis' statement, other than maybe to piss Vettel off. I would hazard a guess that most F1 fans tend to think Hamilton vs Alonso probably is the best rivalry right now (cough barring the awesome Saubers cough), if they are on some level objective/respectful. It's certainly one I pay attention to, I think I would if I wasn't even a fan of Hamilton, they are two intense characters when they get in the car. It's always nice to see them going wheel to wheel. Indy 2007, Silverstone 2009 and Canada 2010 all spring to mind.

I think both of them have developed greater egos than Vettel as well, which is always interesting when thrown in. This said, listening to Vettel's recent radio calls he seems to be getting there. We just haven't seen it tested yet.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
So, we're going to map the current crop of drivers to the mid-1980s...
Lets see what we can do!

We've got a bright young thing getting pole everywhere but not always converting, signing his card with a brilliant wet performance in his first full season!

Vettel = Senna

We've got a driver who came within a point of his team-mate in his first year at McLaren and won the championship in the second!

Hamilton = Prost

We've got a driver who'd won two Championships before the new generation came along and might just win a third...!

Alonso = Piquet

We've got a returning Champion not doing so well!

Schumacher = Jones

We've got a British driver who never used to have the car to go with his talent, but eventually took the prize!

Button = Mansell

We've got a man who came 2nd in the WDC once for Ferrari, but won't do so again!

Massa = Alboreto

There is my 80s map, which is more palatable, but less accurate than my 90s map...

[ALO = MSC, BUT = VIL, RAI/VET = HIL, HAM = HAK, MAS = IRV, BAR = BAR!]
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
I think Snowy has hit the nail on the head, if Hamilton is worrying about Alonso then he's looking in the wrong direction. Vettel is one of the best drivers on the grid in the best car. However, if he perceives Fernando as his nemesis it could present problems if the two come across another on the track. From some of Alonso's outbursts last year it would appear he still has a problem with Hamilton as well - would he have been quite so vociferous if it were another driver at Valencia?

It's also a little arrogant of Hamilton to dismiss Vettel as "the new Mansell", Vettel has proven himself to be a race winner in a way that Mansell never was. Mansell, although talented, got much of the way through sheer bloody hard work which compensated for the greater ability of the drivers he was up against. Never forget, when you look at the stats, Mansell was beaten by de Angelis at Lotus and was out psyched by Piquet at Williams and Prost at Ferrari. I can't imagine Vettel being in that situation, although he is treated as a clear No1 at Red Bull (whatever Christian Horner might have us believe). I would be interesting to see how he would fair against a better driver than Webber.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
I would be interesting to see how he would fair against a better driver than Webber.
Webber had as good a chance of taking the title as Vettel last season.

He finished 14 points behind him which is one 3rd place.

So either Webber is just about as good as Vettel, or...
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
We've got a driver who came within a point of his team-mate in his first year at McLaren and won the championship in the second!

Hamilton = Prost

I hate to be a pedant TBY but it was Prost's 3rd season with McLaren when he won the Championship having finished a point behind John Watson in 1980.
 

siffert_fan

Too old to watch the Asian races live.
Contributor
As I have said before, both Alonso and Hamilton benefited from having the pilfered Ferrari info, including pit strategies in 2007, so both of their performances are quite possibly inflated compared to what they would have been without that advantage. The same is true for the 2008 season, when McLaren was undoubtedly still benefitting from the knowledge gained. Although the car was not allowed to contain carbon-copies of Ferrari parts, it undoubtedly reflected insights gleaned from the data from their chief rival. You cannot make engineers "unlearn" through edict, and the purloined info may well have led McLaren down engineering paths they otherwise would not have explored. You should always look at Lewis's record in those two seasons with these facts in mind.
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
As I have said before, both Alonso and Hamilton benefited from having the pilfered Ferrari info, including pit strategies in 2007, so both of their performances are quite possibly inflated compared to what they would have been without that advantage. The same is true for the 2008 season, when McLaren was undoubtedly still benefitting from the knowledge gained. Although the car was not allowed to contain carbon-copies of Ferrari parts, it undoubtedly reflected insights gleaned from the data from their chief rival. You cannot make engineers "unlearn" through edict, and the purloined info may well have led McLaren down engineering paths they otherwise would not have explored. You should always look at Lewis's record in those two seasons with these facts in mind.
Are we really going to bring that one out of the mud? Is it even necessary?
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Webber had as good a chance of taking the title as Vettel last season.

He finished 14 points behind him which is one 3rd place.

So either Webber is just about as good as Vettel, or...

For me Webber bottled it and Vettel didn't which shows the greater mental strength.
 

Hamberg

FOTA VIP, I've got the avatar to prove it :)
Contributor
For me Webber bottled it and Vettel didn't which shows the greater mental strength.
Which is something Vettel has over the rest and it's importance can't be underestimated!

Now he 'who likes to turn right' needs to hone his overtaking skills and once they are developed he will indeed be one for Hamilton to watch out for.
 
J

johnnoble1990

Guest
As I have said before, both Alonso and Hamilton benefited from having the pilfered Ferrari info, including pit strategies in 2007, so both of their performances are quite possibly inflated compared to what they would have been without that advantage. The same is true for the 2008 season, when McLaren was undoubtedly still benefitting from the knowledge gained. Although the car was not allowed to contain carbon-copies of Ferrari parts, it undoubtedly reflected insights gleaned from the data from their chief rival. You cannot make engineers "unlearn" through edict, and the purloined info may well have led McLaren down engineering paths they otherwise would not have explored. You should always look at Lewis's record in those two seasons with these facts in mind.

If we start pulling things like that up then we could be here for days. Plus, don't Ferrari get certain technical details and blue prints of cars and things given to them to keep them happy. I might be wrong though if someone wants to jump in. It is like one of those unspoken things that everyone knows about.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article5372488.ece

Here is an article where Bernie hints at "extra help" Ferrari get. I remember EJ mentioned it last year, in a whispered voice. I do feel like i'm starting a conspiracy though with all this so don't take it for face value.

I think Snowy has hit the nail on the head, if Hamilton is worrying about Alonso then he's looking in the wrong direction. Vettel is one of the best drivers on the grid in the best car. However, if he perceives Fernando as his nemesis it could present problems if the two come across another on the track.

Agreed, but maybe this is more of a psych out thing from Lewis. We all know how important Vettel's legacy is to him, trying to get most fastest laps and stuff.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Plus, don't Ferrari get certain technical details and blue prints of cars and things given to them to keep them happy. I might be wrong though if someone wants to jump in. It is like one of those unspoken things that everyone knows about.

The only advantage I know Ferrari get is a greater share of the FOM purse which is for historical reasons. Never heard of them getting technical info.
 
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