Gravel Traps vs. Tarmac Run Off

Gravel traps or Tarmac run off? Which do you prefer?


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A combo of the two, I think. Gravel where essential but tarmac on "easier" corners.
With the proviso that any car using the tarmac is captioned "the driver of this car is a ****er" during replays of the incident.
 
Isn't there a greater chance of injury to spectators and marshalls with gravel traps if a stone is flicked up at speed? I've not really thought about that before but it seems like a possibility.
 
Wasn't their a related discussion about this on the Paul Ricard thread?
Does Paul Ricard have speed scrubbing tarmac?
If it does then that seems the best solution.
If it doesn't then F1Y's option of tarmac then gravel seems workable and fair.
Bottom line has to be that going off the track is punishable... maybe drive through penalty if you leave the track 3 times?
 
I like gravel but in truth a mix of both. Definitely gravel at chicanes and knadgery corners to at least impose a penalty without need for recourse to the stewards room. Fast corners are a tricky problem but I quite like the idea of a combination to forgive the innocent braking error but with some nice, deep gravel to slow and/or arrest a car out of control at high speed before it slams into a tyre wall.

Having said that, Allan McNish's accident in this years Le Mans 24 hours might have been different if it had just been sliding over tarmac. His car appeared to launch itself as a result of digging into the gravel during its excursion. The incident begs the question of how survivable that would have been for the driver had it been an open topped prototype or an F1 car.

What we do know, for sure, is that the "survival cells" and fuel bladders of current F1 and other top flight racing series cars are the main reasons for the reduction in serious life threatening injuries and fatalities over recent decades.

From an aesthetic point of view the massive tarmac run-offs make circuits look more like airports than race tracks and to me it detracts from the spectacle. Monaco is a perfect example of a circuit that, although the speeds achieved are slower than at other circuits, the cars appear to be moving faster due to the close proximity of the armco's and track-side scenery, inspiring more than the usual awe in drivers skills. Gravel traps at least retain some of a circuits shape and character.

Finally, with regard to motorcycle racing, gravel and tarmac have their adherents for similar reasons. Often the injuries to a rider are inflicted due to the transition from one surface to another during the incident. Even in a high-side situation where the rider is flung into the air the likelihood is that they will land hard on the track surface rather than in the gravel trap or run off area so for them the issue is moot. On the other hand, tarmac run-offs tend to be pretty big so the spectator is a long way away from the action (a problem also I suppose for spectators at F1 events).

So I guess it's a safety versus spectacle versus practicality debate with any solution being something of a compromise as usual. :thinking: Hmm, seem to be back where the thread started.:rolleyes:
 
I was going to go for the 'armco everywhere' option, but realised that that would get drivers killed, so went for gravel traps.

Although the reason that gravel traps were removed was that they could ping cars into the air, making accidents worse, iirc.

Oops. Too late. Doh. Really didn't think that one through.
 
Was it Filipe or Seb that gained two seconds on a lap this weekend having cut the chicane off camera? Anyone remember? It was mentioned in commentary.

I don't want to take us back to Vettel on Button in Aus, but... Actually, yes I do. Perfect example of an advantage gained by exploring beyond the limits of the circuit. Things like this just couldn't happen if the tracks did not allow for it. Rules are open to interpretation, Armco is not, gravel traps can occasionally be negotiated with (Hamilton, Spa 2010) but always punish to some degree.

The appropriate measure should be used on each corner. This application should conform to a standard. Over-subscription to one method does not pay respect to suitability, nor necessity, as we see with many of the modern tracks with a couple of exceptions.
 
Vettel went off track but it was in a corner where he couldn't gain an advantage.

On topic: I think a mix of both would be best, as others said. It would punish those seriously out of control yet allow for simple braking errors.
On the other hand, gravel can be dangerous at times, is that one of the reasons why we're seeing those long tarmac areas now instead of gravel traps?
 
Vettel went off track but it was in a corner where he couldn't gain an advantage.

On topic: I think a mix of both would be best, as others said. It would punish those seriously out of control yet allow for simple braking errors.
On the other hand, gravel can be dangerous at times, is that one of the reasons why we're seeing those long tarmac areas now instead of gravel traps?

It's all on topic Josh. Regardless of who it was, Brundle and Coulthard got excited when someone set a monster lap time and then realised about 10 seconds later that it had been achieved by cutting a corner. That is the exact point of this thread. Anyway, it's just one example of many, but I thought I would use the most recent one as it would be fresh in people's minds. Sure it was Vettel? I'm not. Memory blank on the driver involved. May even have been Alonso or the other Ferrari, may even have been Webber. I know it was one of the top six.

What is certainly true, and why I raise some examples, is that nobody should be able to gain lap time by leaving the track. On balance the track must also be safe. We need a mixture of good design and good regulation, both executed well.
 
punish them blooming drivers!
Gravel Traps laced with broken glass, barbed wires and them little pins you use for sticking paper to wall or notice boards.
Infact while were at it i also want to see police stingers screwed into the ground at monza style chicanes. That'll stop em cutting the corner!

In all seriousness though, I hate the fact a lot of tracks are just turning into giant car parks. There is maybe an argument for 1 or two on the whole calendar (and i mean corners not tracks). but in 99% of places there not needed. I also cannot stand who at quite a few corners they have also removed grass too. There is little punishment for drivers at those corners.

If you goo off the circuit you should be punished with something difficult to drive, breaks traction on the car (for simply going wide without it being a huge off) and of course slows you down.

I also don't have a probelm with cars getting stuck in the gravel, If you go far enough off to reach one then you cannot get out of it dispite no actual damage to the car then its tough luck and perhaps that said person sohuld of been more careful braking into the corner.
 
It's all on topic Josh. Regardless of who it was, Brundle and Coulthard got excited when someone set a monster lap time and then realised about 10 seconds later that it had been achieved by cutting a corner. That is the exact point of this thread. Anyway, it's just one example of many, but I thought I would use the most recent one as it would be fresh in people's minds. Sure it was Vettel? I'm not. Memory blank on the driver involved. May even have been Alonso or the other Ferrari, may even have been Webber. I know it was one of the top six.

What is certainly true, and why I raise some examples, is that nobody should be able to gain lap time by leaving the track. On balance the track must also be safe. We need a mixture of good design and good regulation, both executed well.
Yeah, it was Vettel, I thought it was very strange when I saw it on the live timing..
 
Wasn't their a related discussion about this on the Paul Ricard thread?
Does Paul Ricard have speed scrubbing tarmac?
If it does then that seems the best solution.
Was it this thread? Yeah, how about a bit of tarmac which mangles your tyres a little to deter off-line excursions? Although that still doesn't solve the spectators-distance problem. Maybe a few metres of that followed by gravel traps...
 
I grew up watching F1 in the mid to late nineties where a car beached in gravel at the side of the track following a minor error was always dramatic. To me drivers should be punished for going off the track (and if that means retirement then tough, if it hurts your title bid then in my view the world champion shouldnt be leaving the track without significant risk of damage/retirement) But I understand the safety concerns regarding pitching cars up in the air. I think another factor is the sport is a helluva lot more commercialised than those days, and sponsors want to see their mobile billboards circulating lap after lap. I fear that will continue to be the case....Damn capitalists! >:(
 
Was it this thread? Yeah, how about a bit of tarmac which mangles your tyres a little to deter off-line excursions? Although that still doesn't solve the spectators-distance problem. Maybe a few metres of that followed by gravel traps...
I thought so but having done a quick scan it seems I'm wrong...

However, from Wikipedia:
The track is known for its distinctive black and blue runoff areas known as the Blue Zone, which is used instead of gravel traps of other circuits, the runoff surface consists of a mixture of asphalt and tungsten.[2] Should that not prevent the car from stopping, there is the Red Zone, a more abrasive run off area, which would require a car to return to the pits for a new tyre. Finally, rather than tyre barriers, Tecpro barriers.[2]
(I've highlighted in underlined bold italics the interesting / relevant bit)

Also from the Paul Ricard site:
http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/details-p-156.html

... still think it looks really trippy though :)
 
Wasn't their a related discussion about this on the Paul Ricard thread?
Does Paul Ricard have speed scrubbing tarmac?
If it does then that seems the best solution.
It does, and that would be the ideal half-way house.
 
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