Gravel Traps vs. Tarmac Run Off

[snowy]

I'd imagine motorcycling would be happier with the Gravel Trap than the Tarmac, am I right?

Because I'm not a track designer or adept in the physics of cars or bikes I can't say for sure. But the nature of some turns and some accidents present different problems and demand different solutions...

 

[snowy]

Put the question another way, would the 2007 season have been better if China didn't have that solitary, small gravel trap at the entrance to the pits?

YOU MANIACS! DAMN YOU! GODDAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

 

[Bullfrog]

I haven't thought this through at all so feel free to shoot it full of holes.

How about allowing drivers to continue (provided they haven't stalled) after being removed from the gravel traps by the marshalls? Mistakes are penalised by quite a big time loss but we don't get retirements due to beaching.

I suppose it's a moot point if tarmac runoffs are being used on safety grounds.

 

[Brogan]

I don't think there's a rule as such is there regarding assistance in getting back on to the circuit?

I know in the old days that it was penalised, usually with a DSQ but we saw Lewis craned back on at Germany and Micheal S was pushed back on last time he was racing.

I also recall the marshals trying to push Lewis out of the gravel at China but they were unable to.

I suspect the problem is one of safety as they would need the tractor to lift and carry the car back to the edge of the circuit and therefore would pose a risk to the other drivers and the marshals, etc.

 

[sobriety]

How about filling the run off areas with air fencing, (basically big sturdy balloons) it'd give a penalty for failure as it'll do damage to the cars, but wouldn't affect the safety.

It'd probably get binned on cost grounds, thinkning about it.

 

[Bullfrog]

I wouldn't want to be the second person to go off at a corner 'protected' by balloons either.

 

[sobriety]

True, but you'd still have acres of run off to drive into, i'm talking about filling the current concrete expanse with fun sponsor based shapes!

 

[snowy]

I don't think there's a rule as such is there regarding assistance in getting back on to the circuit?

I know in the old days that it was penalised, usually with a DSQ but we saw Lewis craned back on at Germany and Micheal S was pushed back on last time he was racing.

I also recall the marshals trying to push Lewis out of the gravel at China but they were unable to.

The rest of the grid took great umbrage at Lewis continuing in the race at Nurburgring and a rule was hastely introduced to curb such enthusiasm.

 

[Brogan]

The rest of the grid took great umbrage at Lewis continuing in the race at Nurburgring and a rule was hastely introduced to curb such enthusiasm.

Odd that the rule wasn't introduced after Schumacher was pushed out of the gravel.

Why is it always that rules are "amended" after Lewis does something?

Being helped out of the gravel - rule changed
Penalised for cutting a chicane but giving the place back before the next corner - rule changed
Penalised for missing the apex of the first corner at Fuji - although no rule was amended as such as no-one before or since has been penalised for the same error

Anyway, that's probably a subject for another thread...

 

[cider_and_toast]

Wasn't the rule something along the lines that if you dropped it in the gravel it was tuff luck unless you were deemed to be in a dangerous position. i.e. where any delay in getting you back out could result in another car zipping off at the same point and playing splat the marshal.

I've got a feeling that the interpretation of what constituted a dangerous position was more down to the shouting and threats of physical violence coming from the driver than any decision made by the marshals.

Time for a delve back into the murky world of the FIA rule book I think.

 

[Enja]

Penalised for missing the apex of the first corner at Fuji - although no rule was amended as such as no-one before or since has been penalised for the same error

Anyway, that's probably a subject for another thread...

Indeed it is. Still makes me furious to this day, plus the fact that anyone with a pair of eyes could see Kovalainen was equally guilty.

 

[LifeW12]

Put the question another way, would the 2007 season have been better if China didn't have that solitary, small gravel trap at the entrance to the pits?

Or if the McLaren team had remembered to bring their brains over from Europe?

 

[siffert_fan]

FB

I have to echo your view of catch fences. As I recall, Mark Donohue was killed by being hit in the head by one of the poles supporting catch fencing! We certainly don't want any more of that sort of thing.

I have always wondered why they don't use the type of barriers used aboard US aircraft carriers to catch errant jets? It is a (I suspect) nylon-kevlar web attached to cables that unreel the web to disipate the force and leave the vehicle relatively undamaged.

I suppose that they would never even consider such a system, as it would be rather unsightly.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Ok, not that it means a great deal but here is the word from the FIA as published in the general prescriptions that apply to ALL FIA sanctioned races on pushing by marshals when in a gravel trap.

13. General Safety
A. Drivers are strictly forbidden to drive their car in the
opposite direction to the race unless this is absolutely necessary
in order to move the car from a dangerous position. A car may
only be pushed to remove it from a dangerous position as
directed by the marshals.

B. During practice and the race, drivers may use only the
track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code
relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

C. If a car stops during practice or a race (except under
Article 17 I c) and d) ), it must be removed from the track as
quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a
danger or hinder other competitors. If the driver is unable to drive
the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of the
marshals to help; however, if any assistance is given which
causes the engine to start, the car will be excluded from the
results of the qualifying practice or race during which the
assistance was given. A driver who abandons a car must leave
the steering wheel with the car.

So it would appear that if the Marshals believe that the car is in what is considered to be a dangerous position and the engine is still running then the marshals are allowed to help the driver.

Clear as mud then.

 

[Matthew Little]

I would go with both gravel traps and paved run-off areas, but it really depends on the track layout and whatever the track owners, event promoters, sanctioning bodies, etc., believe is necessary.

 

[Speshal]

Barbed wire at neck height, broken glass and lava.

Failing that, gravel traps.

 

[siffert_fan]

Speshal,

I didn't know Lava was an option! I'll second that idea

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Maybe they need to have a mix of Gravel and Tarmac for each corner.

The 1st 5/10 metres will be tarmac so any small mistakes can be forgiven but if a car has seriously lost control it will go into the gravel and slow down safely.

I do feel sorry for any driver who has been through a gravel trap at the start of a race and has ended up with bits of rock and sand bouncing around his cockpit for another 50 laps or so.

 

[Brogan]

Would yesterday's race have been better if there had been gravel instead of tarmac.

I don't recall exactly who went off the circuit, but I think at least 5 of the top 6 finishers did, which would have made for a very different race and result.

 

[RevMaxPower]

Gravel. That would smarten 'em up a bit. If we get it wrong on the public roads we don't usually return from a visit to the scenery without the use of a tow truck so why should they. Keep 'em honest....