Fuji GP - Sebastian Bourdais

[cider_and_toast]

What I meant when I said "Massa got what he deserved" was that Massa was penalised.

The extent of the penalty and it's effect on the race is another argument all together and I agree with the points that have been made.

If, in the wake of Spa, the Massa/Hamilton incident had gone unpunished then I think F1 would have gone into meltdown but as it was atleast a punishment was given and for that we should all be thankful.

But as for the Bourdais incident.

 

[Brogan]

Interesting article by PlanetF1 here: What If The Stewards Hadn't Interfered

Never before has the decision-making of race stewards played such a pivotal role in the destiny of a World Championship.

In their headline, The Guardian claims that 'the stewards will decide the title race'. But have they already? Here, PF1 reviews the decisions this season that have directly affected the battle between Lewis Hamilton and Felipe Massa...

Essentially they state that:

Were the stewards to have followed this course of action, and applied the rest of the 'Points Difference' set out above, the current World Championship standings would be very different. Felipe Massa would enter the final two races of the season knowing that he had to win both to have any chance of the title while Hamilton, leading 93-73 in our alternative, would require just a single point to clinch his first title.

 

[GeoffP]

I've not seen this analysis in one place before. It's remarkable to think that this article is still based on conservative adjustments to questionable (at best) stewards decisions.

What sticks out more than the point changes is the consistency of the way in which the decision makers are compromised. Even if their decisions were unbiased their ability to judge would not be allowed in most environments because of their relationships with other teams/bodies

 

[Jen]

Rubbish steward's decision - everyone came away from that race expecting Massa to be punished.

What is my point:

This year has produced a prodigious amount (in comparison) of racing and I am happy to watch the only sport I'm actually interested in even, if the stewards want to set their own agendas. The only thing that the last couple of years has pointed up is that I want to see racing - which is why I tend to focus on the race itself and disregard all the "other" stuff.

We live in a corrupt and corporate world and there is f all we can do about it - so enjoy the bits you can.

 

[teabagyokel]

I love the Planet F1 article. They don't go over the top in Lewisteria in this article as well! I hope Lewis carries away the title in the same way I'm glad that Juventus got caught "choosing" referees...

 

[Amdathlonuk]

What an interesting article....

Is there anywhere that lists WHO has been penalised this season in F1? I'd like to see the breakdown by driver out of curiosity.

 

[slickskid]

There is only one word to decribe bordais's penalty... RIDICULOUS!!!

 

[GooddayBruce]

Penalties this season

Australia :
- Nakajima given 10 place grid penalty for Malaysia for causing an avoidable accident with Kubica behind the safety car.
- Barrichello gien a 10s stop-go for pitting whilst the pitlane was closed
- Barrichello DQd for exiting the pitlane through red light.
Malaysia :
- Hamilton and Kovalainen given 5 place grid penalties for blocking Heidfeld and Alonso in Q1
Bahrain :
Spain :
Heidfeld given a 10s stop go for pitting whilst pit lane was closed.
Turkey :
- Fisichella given a 3 place grid penalty for exiting the pit lane through red lights on Friday *
Monaco :
- DC given 5 place grid penalty after changing his gearbox due to accident damage.
- Vettel takes 5 place grid drop for changing his gearbox due to introduction of new STR3 chassis
- Fisichella takes 5 place grid drop for changing gearbox
- Raikkonen given a 10s stop-go because his mechanics were too slow getting off the grid before the warm up lap.
Canada
- Bourdais given a 5 place grid penalty for a gearbox change
- Hamilton and Rosberg given 10 place grid penalties for France for causing avoidable accidents in the pit lane.
France
- Kovalainen given a 5 place grid drop for impeding Webber in Q1
- Barrichello given a 5 place grid penalty for a gearbox change
- Hamilton given a drive through for cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage over Vettel
Britain:
Germany:
- Kovalainen fined in practice for a fuelling regulation breach
- Fisichella given a 25s penalty for unlapping himself under teh safety car before he was allowed to.
Hungary:
- Bourdais given a 5 place grid drop for blocking Heidfeld in Q1
Valencia:
- Massa given a 10000 Euro fine for 'unsafe pit release'
Belgium
- Kovalainen given a drive thru for causing an avoidable accident with Webber.
- Hamilton given a 25s penalty in liu of a drive thru for 'going off the racetrack'
- Glock given a 25s penalty for passing Webber under waved yellow flags
Monza:
Singapore:
- Trulli gets a fine and a reprimand after driving the wrong way down the track on Friday
- Heidfeld gets a 3 place grid penalty for blocking Barrichello in Q1
- Barrichello gets a fine for not entering the pits properly after being blocked by Heidfeld
- Kubica and Rosberg get 10s stop-gos for pitting when the pit lane was closed
- Massa given a drive through for 'unsafe pit release'
Japan:
- Hamilton gets a drive-thru for 'forcing a car off the track'
- Massa gets a drive thru for causing an avoidable accident
- Bourdais gets a 25s penalty for not rolling out the red carpet.

Good mix - Bourdais and Heidfeld/Barrichello decision get the reward for dumbest of the year.

 

[veravista]

Interesting bit of footage on the official F1 website - right at end with the Bourdais/Massa incident http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... /8530.html
Explains why some people think that Bourdais turned into Massa, you'll notice a bit of opposite lock after he's been hit. Also convenient that only that onboard is available, however right at the start of the clip I swear Massa has a quick glance to see Bourdais. He saw him, he must have, and they are at best level going into the corner for position, so how on earth can Bourdais be penalised? You can see Bourdais regaining control in the turn after his front wheel has been dragged round.
Still unbelievable.

 

[Speshal]

Interesting bit of footage on the official F1 website - right at end with the Bourdais/Massa incident http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... /8530.html
Explains why some people think that Bourdais turned into Massa, you'll notice a bit of opposite lock after he's been hit. Also convenient that only that onboard is available, however right at the start of the clip I swear Massa has a quick glance to see Bourdais. He saw him, he must have, and they are at best level going into the corner for position, so how on earth can Bourdais be penalised? You can see Bourdais regaining control in the turn after his front wheel has been dragged round.
Still unbelievable.

agreed mate

I've mainly been asleep or working since Sunday and watching that clip make me 'kin furious for Hamilton and Bourdais - enough has been said about it but seeing as the the F1 feed surely that's what the stewards got to see?

I'm prepared for a few nights in a French nick for criminal damage to go and paint the FIA's HQ in Paris scarlet red should Massa win the WDC, anyone do me a lift please

 

[RickD]

agreed mate

I've mainly been asleep or working since Sunday and watching that clip make me 'kin furious for Hamilton and Bourdais - enough has been said about it but seeing as the the F1 feed surely that's what the stewards got to see?

I'm prepared for a few nights in a French nick for criminal damage to go and paint the FIA's HQ in Paris scarlet red should Massa win the WDC, anyone do me a lift please

I'll give you a lift..

 

[Amdathlonuk]

If RickD can't, I'm sure I'll going past there for some reason...

 

[veravista]

And then I saw this! http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 15,00.html
Webber investigated for forcing Massa into the pit lane exit? All too easy to believe that this was not announced too publicly as the result of the race was not effected. Am I joining the conspiracy theorists?
Beggars belief.

 

[sobriety]

Could this not be a typically FiA roundabout way of increasing the overtaking, by punishing those who defend their positions 'Too robustly'?

 

[Brogan]

As it was Massa who broke the rules by "leaving the track" to overtake Webber then again, it's a mystifying decision by the stewards to question Webber.

The stewards and FIA are doing themselves no favours in quelling the allegations of pro-Ferrari bias.

 

[Croydon Bob]

The stewards and FIA are doing themselves no favours in quelling the allegations of pro-Ferrari bias.

When considering conspiracy theories it helps to look at them from both sides. So, if we take David Icke's "shape-changing-cannibal-reptiloids": If it is rubbish, things would be pretty much the way they are; if it was true, he'd have been found dead in a seedy hotel room of a drug overdose years ago and we'd all have forgotten about him.

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that there is NO Ferrari bias. Then why do the stewards, race after race, make poor decisions that advantage Ferrari and disadvantage anyone taking points from Ferrari or challenging them for a world championship? Wouldn't they realise what they have done previously, how it looks to neutral fans, and then try to avoid doing it again? Possibly even making a decision biased the other way to over-compensate?

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that there IS a Ferrari bias. Then what else can the stewards do but keep making decisions that help Ferrari? It's what they are expected to do by the FIA, they can't help but look as if they are fixing it when they actually are.

When considered in this way it is obvious that the Ferrari bias is genuine and not a mad conspiracy theory.

 

[The Artist.....]

As it was Massa who broke the rules by "leaving the track" to overtake Webber then again, it's a mystifying decision by the stewards to question Webber.

The stewards and FIA are doing themselves no favours in quelling the allegations of pro-Ferrari bias.

Being honest on this one - if you look at the footage of Massa overtaking Webber (which I have a few times), whilst the initial move is a little dodgy, Massa has at least 2 wheels within the white lines (Which seems to be the definition of being on the race track), but then Webber does begin to squeeze Massa off the track.....
(About 2.25 into this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M4LKcro ... re=related)

However, the idea that people in "The other place" were bawling that Massa should have been disqualified for this - the pit lane exit is regularly used for overtakes like this - and has been seen in Spain very often..... (Also it was not excessively dangerous, as I suspect Ferrari might have told Massa if there was any danger of a car trundling out at 50mph.... Actually, following Valencia and Singapore, scrub that!).....

However, I would also argue that Massa had no need to be over that side of the track anyway - he could have easily gone round the outside - although he may have felt slightly uneasy overtaking a Red Bull car around the outside, having pirouetted around the front wheel of a sister car.....

Also at 2.00 there's coverage of the Massa Bourdais incident. This shot tends to support that both Bourdais and Massa could have done more - Bourdais could have hugged the apex a little more (he understeered away from it, probably because he hit the curb quite hard), and Massa could have gone wider. However, I see this as identical to the incident with Hamilton and Kubica last year, where Hamilton came in from wide, clipped Kubica's front wheel, and Kubica got a drive through.....

 

[veravista]

In reality Massa's move was a bit reckless at most, not the best way to achieve what was inevitably going to happen, that would surely have been the outside route after Webber started drifting to the right. Maybe Webber did start to put the squeeze on a bit but nothing dangerous. But really that was all that it was.
On a technical note, as far as I've always understood the pit lane exit after the speed limit line is part of the track, only cars exiting the pits must stay in the blend lane until the second line. Cars on the track can use the area inside the blend line because it still part of the race track, certainly at a lot of tracks it's almost impossible not to use it (Magny Cours, Singapore, Brazil). Or have I got it wrong?

 

[The Artist.....]

In reality Massa's move was a bit reckless at most, not the best way to achieve what was inevitably going to happen, that would surely have been the outside route after Webber started drifting to the right. Maybe Webber did start to put the squeeze on a bit but nothing dangerous. But really that was all that it was.
On a technical note, as far as I've always understood the pit lane exit after the speed limit line is part of the track, only cars exiting the pits must stay in the blend lane until the second line. Cars on the track can use the area inside the blend line because it still part of the race track, certainly at a lot of tracks it's almost impossible not to use it (Magny Cours, Singapore, Brazil). Or have I got it wrong?

Veravista, that's exactly how I've understood it too!

I think (at least part of) the problem for Japan was that at the edge of the straight, there is a white line, then a car-sized gap, then the pit wall, which give the inviting opportunity to "Stick one up the inside".....

The problem has been raised since Spa, where I don't think I need to go into what happened any more!

 

[teabagyokel]

My favourite "what's going on" penalty of the year was Kovalainen in France "blocking Mark Webber". Sorry? I'm not sure if the feed ITV were showing was accurate, but there was an extenuating circumstance on that one...

KOVALAINEN WAS BEING BLOCKED BY BL**DY NAKAJIMA IN THE FIRST PLACE!

And no pens for Fernando "The world's against me" Alonso!