Fuji GP - Sebastian Bourdais

Amdathlonuk

Somewhat related.........
Contributor
I can't believe he was given a 25 second penalty............... it just beggars belief. :s
 

GeoffP

Thank you and good night
Contributor
Unreal, can't see a link to how the decision came about. Anyone here see Massa's side of the arguement?
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
It just reinforces the perception that there is something rotten in F1.

Has a driver ever been penalised before for a 1st corner incident which involved "forcing another driver off the track"?
Surely that happens at almost every GP?

By penalising Lewis Hamilton for going too deep into the 1st corner, they have now set a precedent and all subsequent similar incidents at future grands Prix should be penalised in the same manner.
We shall have to wait and see if that is the case or if this was a special one-off penalty...

Another nail in the coffin for racing in F1?

Massa should have received a stop-go penalty for cutting the corner and hitting LH when he came back on to the track.
The drive-through he received still allowed him to regain the track ahead of LH after turning him around and putting him back to 18th position.

He should also have at least been investigated for undertaking on the pit straight and driving over the red and white hatched area at the pit lane exit.
That looked to be extremely dangerous to me and as far as I am aware, Massa was off the circuit having gone over the outside white line?

As for the Bourdais incident, the penalty applied defies belief.
Surely the most ardent Ferrari supporter can see it is just plain wrong?

The images of the Ferrari pit crew jumping and cheering when Massa hit LH just shows their win at all costs mentality.
Be it by fair means or foul.

Mass'a post-race comments have shown him to be ungracious.
He blames LH and SB for both incidents and denies hitting LH at all.
Perhaps he needs to watch the replays and revise his opinions?
 

veravista

Rookie
Just watched the replay - I can't get up at 6am for gawds sake - only to see once again that the stewards seem to be watching some other race!
1st corner - nothing incident and the inevitable penalty. No surprises there then.
Massa spears Hamilton - a deserved penalty.
Bourdais sticks to his line defending his position and gets driven into and handed a 25sec penalty!
Raikonen in the pitlane exit? Would never have thought that would be a penalty - but not that much different to the Barichello incident in qualy at Singapore so why wasn't it investigated?
Three of them I'm not surprised at, but Bourdais' is just another travesty - only someone who has never had any experience of any form of racing could see that it was never his fault. Massa caused it, he could have avoided it. OK he lost time, but surely it was his second 'causing an avoidable accident' incident?
Ah well, the sooner it moves lock stock and barrel to the middle/far east to sterile tracks the better.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Just watched the farce, sorry race. WTF?!? The FIAt really need to sort their biases out. The first corner incident was just that and no penalty was deserved, LH would have had to come in to change tyres anyway as he flat spotted them badly. The Chicane incident should have been a stop-go as a precedent had already ben set at Spa.

The biggest WTF moment was the Bourdais incident? How the hell can a driver be given a penalty for defending his place and having another driver run into him???

Also, how didn't Massa get a penalty for going across the hatching on the pit exit? I thought that was clear cut breaking the rules?

Were the stewards too busy watching Wacky Races?

>:(
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
I don't know about you, but I know of another driver at Ferrari who used tactics like that when fighting a World Championship.

As for the stewards, if I were Ferrari I'd complain because I would have what the Italians would call "Coraggio" and would want to prove I could win a Championship in a fair fight! You may know my view is that they bribed and cheated their way to the WCC last year!

The Hamilton penalty on lap 1 was what the Italians would call "Incredibilmente stupido" and involved a punishment for forcing Raikkonen off the track which a) isn't against the rules and b) he didn't do!

The Massa penalty was pretty consistent with this year's stewarding, although you could take the view that he cut a chicane expressively to hit a man whom he was fighting for the Championship with, and in 1997...

If Hamilton forced Raikkonen off the road, did Webber not force Massa off the road?

I've never seen anyone punished for what Bourdais did before, but it gives Massa another point!

Of course, we all know the Hamilton penalty was required in order to punish Massa, but I can't see the pretext behind that, and, its just stupid!

The Ferrari & Juventus motto, È possibile barare, se i funzionari ti amo, has been well kept up today. And congratulations to Fernando Alonso, a worthy winner this week!
 

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
I've posted something similar in "The other place", and I have to say that I've seen countless incidents like the Bourdais incident, with the car behind getting punished. This is particularly true when the overtaking driver is in the championship chase.

However, it was always going to be a dubious penalty, and despite what James Allen was asserting, there was no way that Massa was ever going to be punished. However, there was some doubt in the stewards' minds, and as such they decided to investigate the incident after the race, and as such, would be able to consider all of the evidence, including the feedback from the drivers themselves!

However, I would say that both Hamilton's and Massa's penalties were completely deserved, and on the whole (Apart from possibly the Bourdais incident), think that the stewards did a good job today.
 

Amdathlonuk

Somewhat related.........
Contributor
The Artist..... said:
However, I would say that both Hamilton's and Massa's penalties were completely deserved, and on the whole (Apart from possibly the Bourdais incident), think that the stewards did a good job today.
I somewhat agree with your comments however..........

How come there has NEVER in the history of F1, been a penalty at 1st corner incidents? What about Alonso in the Singapore GP who cut the chicane in the 1st corner from the start and gained 2 places, the incident was never even investigated????? and he went on to win as we know, so that had a massive impact on the race result.

I'm all for rules, but they have to be consistent and fair.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
What about 1st corner incidents where drivers have rammed other cars and taken them out of the race?
Never seen anyone penalised for that either...

As far as I can see, the stewards had no choice but to penalise Massa for going off the circuit and then rejoining and hitting Hamilton.
They then retrospectively reviewed the start to see what they could get Hamilton for to "even" it back up.
 

Amdathlonuk

Somewhat related.........
Contributor
He added: "I don't know what I was supposed to do basically. I could have unrolled the red carpet and given him the corner."

Quote from Bourdais.......... Class. LOL
 

GeoffP

Thank you and good night
Contributor
Bourdais doesn't know what he's talking about - he'd only pulled away from the pit lane exit 400 yards earlier accelerating from 50mph. With Massa closing from way behind at 200mph, when would he have had time to stop the car, let alone get out, pick up the red carpet, position it, roll it out, organise the band and pick up the conductors baton.

The idiot is just talking rubbish, he left absolutely no time to get himself properly prepared!
 

Amdathlonuk

Somewhat related.........
Contributor
frog-n-flymo said:
Bourdais doesn't know what he's talking about - he'd only pulled away from the pit lane exit 400 yards earlier accelerating from 50mph. With Massa closing from way behind at 200mph, when would he have had time to stop the car, let alone get out, pick up the red carpet, position it, roll it out, organise the band and pick up the conductors baton.

The idiot is just talking rubbish, he left absolutely no time to get himself properly prepared!
ROFL
 

GeoffP

Thank you and good night
Contributor
Thinking about it, I seem to remember one of those stupid laws that remains in existence is in Iowa where if you meet a flock of sheep on the road you must stop and dismantle your vehicle into pieces no more than 1 foot cubed and hide them in the undergrowth in order not to disturb the livestock.

In the FIA's ongoing diligence in clarifying the rulebook do you think they should call on the wording from this law just so no-one gets any funny ideas?
 

Amdathlonuk

Somewhat related.........
Contributor
A quote from Massa over the incident with Bourdais, I do believe he was driving in a different race?

As far as I could tell, Bourdais was in front at the turn????

"As for the incident with Bourdais, I think there's little to say: I had already entered the turn and he hit me from behind, spinning me round."
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
Having now seen it on the highlights it just beggers belief. Even James "I love Ferrari so much I named my kid Enzo" Allan said Massa had a penalty hanging over his head for his move on Bourdais.

What on earth did Bourdais do wrong ???

He came out of the pits and hugged the inside of the corner. You could have driven a bus around the outside of him. Bourdais didn't swerve, change his line, block or make any attempt to impead massa in any way and yet he got penalised.

:givemestrength:

As for Lewis at turn one. Hmmm. Wasn't it Heiki who pushed Kimi off the track :crazy:

Massa got what he deserved for his move on Lewis. Nuff said.

Regards

C_A_T

:goodday:
 

veravista

Rookie
**Breaking news**

Bourdais penalty has been overturned! Not only that, but Europe have been awarded this years Ryder Cup because, after a stewards enquiry, it was found one of the Americans cheated - the footage obviously is no longer avaialble but trust the judges.

Just waiting to hear about Germanys appeal from the 1966 World Cup final......
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
James Allen has raised a very valid point on the ITV website that raises even more concerns:

"And like Hamilton’s penalty at Spa, this one cannot be appealed as it was a 25-second penalty added to race time, in lieu of a drive-through during the race.

But the incident happened on lap 51, some 16 laps from the end. The stewards had 20 minutes to consider their verdict.

Ironically it took them only 15 laps to award the penalties for Hamilton and Massa at the start, so they could have arrived at a conclusion before the end of the race."

Now I don't want to say there is a conspiracy in F1 but how can people not think there is when the Bourdais incident just seems to re-inforce all their perceptions.

:givemestrength:

This penalty is unjustifiable. Ok so Massa/Hamilton Fuji and Massa/Kimi Spa and Hamilton Fuji 1st corner have prompted debate and discussion from all sides as to weather a penalty was justified but has any one seen anybody come up with a valid justification for this one ??
(with the exception of Massa who seems to have been involved in a different race to everyone else LOL)

If any of you go out in the next few weeks and see strange marks in fields don't worry it's not aliens it will almost certainly be from where once again the reputation of Formula one has been dragged through the mud by it's own governing body.

>:(
 
cider_and_toast said:
Massa got what he deserved for his move on Lewis. Nuff said.
Can't say that I agree.

Part of the fuss about Hamilton's penalty at Spa was that he "gained advantage" and therefore had to be punished. Well Massa gained advantage even after the drive-through penalty. Punting Hamilton back into 18th place gave him two points over Hamilton at the end of the race. He should have been, say, disqualified completely and give a ten place grid penalty at the next race to have a comparable penalty.

Then consider that in 1997 Schumacher was disqualified for doing to Villeneuve almost exactly what Massa did to Hamilton...
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
I would agree that overall Massa gained an advantage as after serving his penalty he was still in front of Hamilton, despite being behind him at the chicane just prior to the incident.

A more appropriate penalty would have been a stop-go which would have put Massa behind Hamilton on the track.
 

GeoffP

Thank you and good night
Contributor
What I find irritating, other than the obvious FIA bias (forcing the series decider at the last race, or forcing a ferrari win - which is it?) is that Lewis got punished for his first corner error, and takes it on the chin, doesn't make a song and dance about Heikki being the one who pushed Kimi off the circuit.

Felipe, who I've always supported, says Lewis forced him into the crash and that Bourdais pushed him out. Is he catching the dreaded FIA blinker disease? Why can't he pay attention like every other driver, watch the replay, anything that makes him admit he's been stupid/lucky/favoured/all of the above?

>:( :givemestrength:
 
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